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cost of spacecraft

 Post subject: Re: cost of spacecraft
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:05 pm 
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Jeridian wrote:
Cadians- to be blunt, nothing stands out so drastically as to require anything more than Steel Legion with a grey paint scheme, or if your lucky Cadian models. In fact, they are so far reaching, so numerous and so flexible you can pass off a Cadian Regiment using almost any of the IG army list- a Cadian Tank Regiment or Siege Regiment is quite possible.

The Cadian list I've put together is an "elite infantry" army, both as a defense force and a "shock troop" army; Kasrkin, Psykers, and fortifications, with no big tank or arty companies.

Plays quite a bit differently from Steel Legion.


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 Post subject: Re: cost of spacecraft
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:37 pm 
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As edifying and informative as this discussion of list building paradigms is (No, I'm not being sarcastic.), I'm not sure what it has to do with the cost of a Transport/Assault SC...

Dobbsy, please elaborate on the abilities of this craft. Who would it transport, what delivery options would there be, what would be the capacity? A minimal Orbital Barrage might be nice, to clear the drop zone, but that would edge in on the Strike Cruiser niche. Of course, it's not been made clear whether Marines would be dropping anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: cost of spacecraft
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:19 pm 
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If you went for it, the obvious thing to use is a Rapid Strike Vessel. Of course, they do have bombardment...

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 Post subject: Re: cost of spacecraft
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:54 am 
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Chroma: I need to rephrase the point in a less insulting way. Having not seen your Cadian list, if you have managed to create an Imperial Guard army list that brings a fresh and new playstyle not evident in any existing IG list- and having done that, chosen the Cadian IG colour scheme/background as the 'case study' for that playstyle then great.

My rambling point is IMO I believe first and foremost when creating a variant list (particularly for wide distribution at tournaments/etc) bringing a new playstyle to the army is paramount, paying homage to an existing GW background army is a distant second.
My plucking the Cadian's as a IG example is from how I percieve them in GW background- they have become the Ultramarines of the Guard world (plastic infantry played a big part) whilst their background explains they have many, many regiments across the Imperium fighting in many, many conflicts in many, many combat styles. A descriptive of a broad army that could justifiably use any IG variant Epic list.

Again, if you've managed to create a fresh, new IG playstyle- then used the Cadian's to represent it- great.


I think my best example is always going to be BA/DA Space Marines- of where homage to existing GW armies came a strong first, and finding a playstyle that isn't just Red/Green Codex Marines was a distant second in Epic.

In the Epic UK Marine list-set (which determines many tournaments in the UK) I would have voted Scions (or a similar mechanied/armoured SM playstyle) long before DA/BA with token new units.


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 Post subject: Re: cost of spacecraft
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:20 am 
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Quote:
My rambling point is IMO I believe first and foremost when creating a variant list (particularly for wide distribution at tournaments/etc) bringing a new playstyle to the army is paramount, paying homage to an existing GW background army is a distant second.
My plucking the Cadian's as a IG example is from how I percieve them in GW background- they have become the Ultramarines of the Guard world (plastic infantry played a big part) whilst their background explains they have many, many regiments across the Imperium fighting in many, many conflicts in many, many combat styles. A descriptive of a broad army that could justifiably use any IG variant Epic list.

Chroma's list attempts to demonstrate the Cadians at their most iconic: The defence of Cadia itself.

Fighting on Cadia, they were a non-mechanised infantry-based force with access to siegeworks, but of a far higher general level of technology than the Baran Siegemasters or even the Death Korps of Krieg.

So that is their niche.

Of course part of the problem is that the "Steel Legion" army list for Epic does a pretty good job of representing a "generic Imperial Guard regiment", but doesn't do a particularly exemplary job of representing the Armageddon Steel Legion!

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In the Epic UK Marine list-set (which determines many tournaments in the UK) I would have voted Scions (or a similar mechanied/armoured SM playstyle) long before DA/BA with token new units.

The EUK Marine "Codex" was quite conservative in the changes it made I think.
The only list there that offers a distinctly different playstyle (Rather than just a few tweaked unit types) is the Black Templars list, and even that was pared back in variance when you compare it with the original NetEA list that served as its template.

So uh, in summation, I agree that you should find the core theme of a variant list when developing it and work hard at highlighting it.

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 Post subject: Re: cost of spacecraft
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:04 pm 
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Quote:
Of course part of the problem is that the "Steel Legion" army list for Epic does a pretty good job of representing a "generic Imperial Guard regiment", but doesn't do a particularly exemplary job of representing the Armageddon Steel Legion!


Kind of true.

If you removed the Infantry Company option, and made the Tank/Super Heavy Tank/Artillery Company a 'One per RegHQ/Mech Inf Co taken' that would sufficiently represent Steel Legion IMO.

Quote:
The EUK Marine "Codex" was quite conservative in the changes it made I think.


To their credit the EUK Imperial Guard "Codex" is a little bolder with 2 new* playstyles in the form of Tank Army and Air Cav.
The Tank Army has even got me shelling out for lots of IG tanks, which is an achievement.

*by new, I mean on the EUK Tournament scene.


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 Post subject: Re: cost of spacecraft
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:13 pm 
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Quote:
Kind of true.

If you removed the Infantry Company option, and made the Tank/Super Heavy Tank/Artillery Company a 'One per RegHQ/Mech Inf Co taken' that would sufficiently represent Steel Legion IMO.

And whip out Ogryns and Rough Riders (Steel Legion don't use them)...

Quote:
the EUK Imperial Guard "Codex" is a little bolder with 2 new* playstyles in the form of Tank Army and Air Cav.

Agreed. Especially in that neither list exactly duplicated an already-existant NetEA list as with the Templars (Ulani play differently to Minervans, and Air Cav differently to Elysians) and hit at displaying a theme primarily.
I'm probably going to collect an Air Cav list in the fullness of time.

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 Post subject: Re: cost of spacecraft
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:50 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:

Of course part of the problem is that the "Steel Legion" army list for Epic does a pretty good job of representing a "generic Imperial Guard regiment", but doesn't do a particularly exemplary job of representing the Armageddon Steel Legion!



Because of this i wrote a Steel Legion Planetary Defence Force army list which is a REAL Steel Legion army. :)

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 Post subject: Re: cost of spacecraft
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:11 am 
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Black Legion- Is that the list with no Super Heavies, Titans, Aircraft?


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 Post subject: Re: cost of spacecraft
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 1:17 pm 
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No. It's this one http://www.epic-battles.de/index.php?na ... ad&id=1105

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 Post subject: Re: cost of spacecraft
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 2:06 pm 
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In many a discussion, Jeridian and myself have had on this subject we've always been very much in agreement and I again agree 100% with the sentiments expressed here.

I do like the Black Templars in the epic UK codex marines and am considering collecting an army of them. It's a very different playstyle and IMO represents a crusading chapter quite well.

Back to the main topic though, I do think that there's a lot of disparity between the different space craft of the various races.

Marine and Chaos space craft are very good and supply the armies with a variety of tactical options that improve the army and increased flexibility. The Chaos craft in particular because it gives an otherwise slow BL army a chance to get close to the opposition and summon Daemons, doing damage and allowing the rest of the force to catch up relatively unmolested - in addition to having BOTH a barrage and a pin point for 150 pts.

Then we look over at the Eldar list. 150 pts for the cheapest space craft that has a Barrage OR a single pin point and activates on a 2+ with no drop options is a poor choice. Guard and Ork spacecraft are even more of a poor option - why pay 150 pts for a spacecraft that gets one chance and must pre-plot when for 50 pts more you can have a fearless shadowsword (With the inevitable commissar) that gets to shoot every turn and can capture ground and get involved in engagements?


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 Post subject: Re: cost of spacecraft
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 2:19 pm 
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Obviously every spacecraft is going to have a different role to different armies. Just from my personal experiences and games, an assault army (World Eaters) would have far more use of a Spacecraft than lets say the Imp Guard.

So everything in context of the army it supports I would think. It's not like the Imp Guard really need it... Orks don't need it, and Eldar do quite well without it as well.

A troop carrier for an assault force is far more valuable than the pin point or barrage attack it provides.


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 Post subject: Re: cost of spacecraft
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 7:44 pm 
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i had never looked at the Scaros space marine list... i am going to play that list next time with my home grown Emerald Knights marines.


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