Before the Tau codex  shows up,
I have some suggestions about Tau stats and point costs

Here is my proposal about Tau rail guns:

Light Rail gun: Range 75cm TH +3 TS -1 Pen +1..............Units: Bettlesuits
Medium Rail gun: Range 75cm TH+3 TS-2 Pen +2...........Units: Hammerheads,Tigersharks,Vektor Knights
Heavy Rail gun: Range 100cm TH +3 TS -3 Pen +3...........Units: Manta/Moray, Swordfish Super Heavy Tanks

Battlesuits cost:
I think 500 for the Boardsides is to high
you changed from 4.1 to 5.0:
TH +3 >>>TH +4
Points 350>>>500
thats to much I think 400 will do it
I loose every battle, I fought with the Tau, half of my boardsides in Turn 1

Crisissuites:
250 points is to low
I think 300/units is better

Tau Command units
For every Co. which is lead by a battlesuit command unit ,
I raised the cost up to 50 points
thats still cheap

Tigershark:
The railgun variant is to expensive and has a low AS
Please think about
this is the Tank Hunter Variant (like IL-2) why should it has a lower AS
should be AS +3

400 points/model is silly
compared with the drone carrier
the tank hunter variant is only slightly better armed
should be 150/model or 200/model


Please reactivate the Tau vektor knights!
Just replace the "flyer kit"
with a jump pack
similar to the eldar reverants one


And 1 questions:

Am I right?
If the Manta/Moray failes its fixed shield save,
the shot will hit the hull
even with more activated shields?

That is worse than the eldar holofields
this means you can shoot down a manta with the first shot?

Should be:
if fails a fixed save the Manta/Moray will loose one shield
if it failes 2 it will loose 2

i.g. The manta is hit by 7 shots and failes 2,
it will only loose 2 shields


best regards

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I am not available for that cognition on my part

sorry for the Topic
but I cant edit it?

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I am not available for that cognition on my part

Some comments about suggestions.


I agree with this. I also feel that 4+ save should be 3+. If they are tank hunters they should be able to take a hit. Maybe 450 and a 3+ save is better.

Okay, but leave the Broadside Battlesuit Team cost then since you want them to be cheaper.

I agree with the save that should be 3+.
About the cost. You have to consider that the penetrating ability is very powerful and should cost accordingly.



I agree that they suck. Id rather have the orc shields.

But.. We should include Juffo-Wup in this thread. I believe that the Tau list is "his baby".
Ask him to answer and comment.
/P

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Thanks for your comments


So please help us


But not that much,
even with the super heavy vehicle damage table.
Most of your shots target non-super-heavy , pretoreans/titan models!

And compared to the drone carrier, which is 300 points, inclusive 4 gun drones which are 150 points worth
it should cost 200

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I am not available for that cognition on my part

Juffo-Wup and I playtested the revised Tau list pretty heavily.  However, he has a new bub and other committments so doesn't play NE at the moment....at least not without a lot of goading and poking    

I'm happy to look at ideas for the Tau if there's general agreement.  Despite all the games we played I'm still not certain we have everything perfect.  Broadsides could certainly come down a shade or two in cost for one.  I think we kept the Crissis suits low as a signature Tau unit that was their "really good value for the points" unit.  Every army should have a signature unit  

The one thing that can be abusive with the Tau is their flyers.  I'm particularly cautious about flyers with long range shooting ability, as coupled with high altitude they can be nearly invulnerable.  The AX-1-0 has massive firepower with long range so will be very expensive.  It is probably most comparable with a Phoenix Bomber that has less 75cm shots and still costs 300 points.  Playtesting also showed it very often earned it's points back (it shredded many SHTs, Praetorians and the odd Warlord titan in its day).  I think if there is any argument to be made then perhaps the Drone Carrier should increase a little.

We tried to offset the risk of abusive flyer armies with the Tau to some degree by limiting the effectiveness of the AA (a little) and giving their flyers low CAF.  Despite this, it is still easy to make a Tau army list that is extremely difficult to fight against if you don't know what is coming.  The smart Tau player can also surprise you sometimes by taking no flyers too.

Deflector shields is the Tau thing so I'm fairly loath to change it.  I acknowledge it's not the best defense, but this was what was developed by the original writers.  I find Tau landing craft are more vulnerable to CC anyway.

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This should be no problem
 
The AX-1-0 has 2x/+4/-3/Pen.+3
and 2 aa missiles

The drone carrier has 4x/+4/-2
and 1 aa missile
and carries a detachment gun drones 150 points worth

I would never use an AX-1-0 if its 100 points more expensive (without drones 250 points)

IMO the phoenix is expensive too.



You dont have that nice targets all the time

All armies  have a good airforce now
I think this problem could show up nearly on every army

This means I can loose my 1350 point manta cadre to the first shot fired?
In the rules is written that the Tau shield technology is the most advanced one
but it has both penalties, the limited number of shields and the possibility to take a hit with every shot.
That cant be right
if a shield fails its save the next shield should get a chance to deflect  the shot


What do you think about the railguns?
That would reactivate the nice to hit +3(which was killed on 4.1.)
and would reduce the mighty power of penetrating in one go


best regards

ulric

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I am not available for that cognition on my part

I like the railgun idea.  Will have to look at it in a bit more detail and you'd probably need to repoint some things.

On Monday when I can look at this thread and the book together I'll summarise proposed changes here and send to Juffo to have a look at too.

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

Cool thanks Zap

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I am not available for that cognition on my part

Did anyone thought about this 2 variants
since I have real forgeworld minis of these

I see no problem with  them
I am happy about every comment ect.


ulric

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I think these look fine.

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

I already used them in 2 battles
and there is nothing too powerfull on them

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I am not available for that cognition on my part

Hey all.  I've been very, very quiet for a while now due to the reasons zap mentioned.  I've gotten a little bit of my time back now and am looking at getting epic-active again.


Not a fan of the "Light" railgun.  There is absolutely no precedent for this is 40K and while the idea is cool and all, the Battlesuits already have their variants.  If you're talking about the ones on the Broadsides, they are the exact same guns as on the hammerheads and really shouldn't be any different at all IMO (just without the template shot).  If you are thinking about a Railrifle for the Crisis suits, perhaps we can look at that but I prefer keeping the Crisis suits as they are as there are so many potential fitouts for the Crisis suits that it can get very confusing very fast in Epic scale.


Fair point but in the battles I have played with them, 500pts seemed about right.


Every army needs a great-value unit and the Crisis suits are that unit for the Tau.  If you are playing a pure tau force without Kroot, you're gonna have a very, very hard time capturing objectives and the Crisis suits with their hit-and-run ability allow you to do just that.  They are essential to the Tau battleplan IMO and as a result are worth giving a bit of a discount to.


I think they need to stay the same for the same reasons as above.


As zap sait, flyers with powerful, long-range guns are very, very powerful on the table.  They can be virtually impossible to kill at times.  I have found that the Railcannon Tigershark is well worth its points cost.  Hell, I take two.


They were taken out of the main book deliberately as the Tau do not build Knight or Titan-sized suits.  This is mentioned in the fluff countless times.  They prefer to re-task existing units and for that scale, they use spacecraft.  The Vector Suits are still in the options book if you like using them.  And I believe I did remove the flight pack and replaced it with a jump one.


Yes.  The Deflector Shields.  I've never really been happy with them.  I am very tempted to scrap the whole idea of them and just give any Tau unit that has Deflector currently a fixed save.  In the fluff, Tau shields DO NOT opperate like Ork r Imperial shields.  They don't absorb incoming fire.  They deflect it away from the unit.  As a such I am tempted to simply give Deflector Shielded units a Fixed 2+ or 3+ save to represent the shield and if the shield generators are damaged, they lose the shield save.  No keeping track of how many shields you have.

I am also not happy with how the Markerlights work.  I am looking at how to re-visit them and make them more useful.

Once my new Man-Cave is online (soon now, very soon) I'm going to have to get zap and Oz over again and give the Tau another good outing.

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You know, if you can sort of muscle your way past the gag reflex, all kinds of food possibilities open up!

Here's my summary (and what I sent to JW too):

- Broadsides - maybe 400 for the detachment ( and not actually discussed) probably a concurrent small reduction in the Hunter and Battlesuit Cadre costs - I think this is worth looking at.  The Broadsides are fantastic, but 125 points a stand is a lot.

- The Railgun thing - I don't know enough to have any opinion.  It would be a way to make some units a bit cheaper, but if as JW says if it is not a reflection of the (40K) facts then I'm happy to leave it.

- Flyers - I'm pretty comfortable that these are balanced and correctly costed already.

- Vektors - yeah, right  

- Couple of new Hammerhead variants to reflect available FW models - these look ok to me.

- Markerlights - seemed to be some agreement to have MLs extended to 75cm and ignore cover for existing units with them.   Seems a simple change that would also probably be quite a useful boost in their ability without having to make big changes.

- Deflectors  - people don't like 'em.  I'm not sure I agree with the hoohaa though.   They are in effect just a slightly fluffier, better holofield with exactly the same net result for the most part.  Maybe just increase the number so it is less likely a unit will burn through all its deflectors too quickly.

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

No just for the boardsides
I am not reading any fluff  



Cant agree here
I did different experience
500 is to high
2 units of crisis suits are better


Oh yes  


Okay sounds fair
but try to explain a tau commander
why a crisissuit  with railguns and without jumppacks
takes double time/resources to produce


Sounds fair again


Okay we have completely different positions here


I will do  


The manta is the only Titan/pretorean unit the tau have
maybe should be  a bit cheaper then


That would be cool
I lighted only 2-3 targets up in 3 battles






Okay if the fluff tells us


somebody help me please


Fluff again uhm


Hell yeah



Did we/you finished the rules for the AX-2 Tigershark?

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I am not available for that cognition on my part

Having nothing to base this on I still think railguns should have more - to save.
they are supposed to be realy realy destructive
id say battlesuits -2 hammerheads -3 and heavy rails -4, but thats purely for fluff, have never played with or against them