Because an exception trumps a generalization? It's fairly standard for a rules set.

It's been clarified that "beginning in a ZoC" and "entering a ZoC" are considered identical if engaging the unit whose ZoC you are in.

A unit is not required to move in an engagement, UNLESS it enters/begins in ZoC. Then it MUST, to the limits of it's movement. It's fairly well defined with the above clarification.

You seem hung up on the 'move normally' statement. I believe this refers to everything that doesn't contradict the initially referencing rule (turning, other units blocking, coherency etc).

Morgan Vening

There are a number of such 'contradictory' statements; eg 1.2.1 2nd para So in this case the formation is also prevented from staying still and going on OW or Sustained Fire. You might also check the wording in 1.7.3 3rd para which also seems to contradict 1.7.1

Firstly note that there is a difference between 1.7.1 which relates to making moves, and those situations that affect the Activation choices available to a formation. Then note that the enemy ZoC is removed where one of your units moves into B-B with that enemy unit.

So in summary I would suggest that the formation takes an activation that may be restricted by circumstances, then each unit in the formation moves accordingly. When it comes down to the particular unit in question, if it is still in the enemy ZoC, then it must move into B-B (under 1.12.3 4th para). Does that make sense?

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Ginger said, " When it comes down to the particular unit in question, if it is still in the enemy ZoC, then it must move into B-B (under 1.12.3 4th para). Does that make sense? "

But that rule is for units which entered enemy unit's zone of control. Wheras the unit in this example didn't enter the zone of control.. it started it's move there.

Given the final sentence of the 5h paragraph states "There is no need for any units to get into base-to-base contact with the enemy unless you want them to" I don't see why you couldn't simply back up out of the scout's zone of control and finish the move within 15cm. Surely all the rules have been obeyed?

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On the bit about not having to move into B-B, I believe that refers to units stopping outside the enemy ZoC but still inside 15cm, thus allowing them to engage in FF - basically it is saying that you may choose to use FF or CC.

However you do raise an interesting question on the definition about the unit starting inside the ZoC rather than entering it. I have always read this as requiring the unit to move into contact even if it started in the ZoC. I might add that this is often advantageous to the attacker, and as I have pointed out, the attacker can use another unit to remove the ZoC thus removing the compulsion on the first unit (if it is deemed to exist), or can move the entire formation away if the assault is considered risky.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

I'd like to add to Gingers post that you could also attempt to remove the formation with the overlapping ZoC by using another of your own formations to shoot or engage the offenders with before activating the troops trapped in the ZoC.

Thats not really an answer to the question though is it? Thats just sidestepping the whole issue...

Looking at the rule objectively I'm not really convinced, the units in question haven't entered the zone of control with their move so I think as long as they either get into base contact to negate it they should be fine or move so that they're stopping outside the enemy ZoC but still inside 15cm so they can firefight they've obeyed the requirements.

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But if you look at the ZoC as the physical space the unit occupies on the board - i.e. this is the ground covered by the abstraction which is our little line of slodiers - there are enemy behind them, enveloping and preventing their retreat. This is why entering the ZoC forces you to BtB if possible. You have actually made contact with the unit [i]as soon as you cross the ZoC boundry[\i]. Therefore, simply being in the ZoC is enough to force BtB if you move - you don't know where they are, but they know where you are!

SG

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SG

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While it is sidestepping the issue a little, we are trying to suggest that the player has a number of choices here that mitigate the impact of the harsh requirement placed on the unit in the enemy ZoC.

Put another way, the wording could have been expanded a bit but becomes rather cumbersome when all the conditions are added for example:-

"If a unit of a formation is in an enemy ZoC when the formation activates, the Formation must either assault the enemy or move elsewhere (potentially attacking a different target). If the formation successfully declares an assault, the unit in question must move into B-B if it is still in the enemy ZoC after other units have made their move. However, if the formation declares another activation with one or more units in enemy ZoC, those units must move directly away out of the enemy ZoC, after which they may move freely."

Finally, there has been an implied understanding that rules from later sections of the text override those from earlier sections. So the contentious bit in 1.7.1 could be re-written "units need not move unless they are forced to do so."

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

No it's not and it's not meant to be, I'm pointing out that the formation in the ZofC doesn't have to activate next.

I've played games against inexperienced opponents who thought that the formation had to activate immediately.

I don't really think its kosher to answer a question about the rules by making up different rules...

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Umm, I was not 'making up rules' but rather trying to illustrate two things:-
1. That the particular situation is covered by a number of parts of the existing rules
2. That the rule writer's task is very difficult

If there were not a significant number of alternatives open to the player, then I would agree that this part of the rules might need revision. However, because the player can choose how he wishes to respond to the situation in so many ways, if he chooses to let the unit remain in the enemy ZoC during an assault, I suggest he has accepted the compulsion for the unit to charge into B-B.

Now I understand that does not quite answer the point about starting or entering the ZoC, but my suggestion is that it is not 'unfair' to read this as "if a unit starts in or enters an enemy ZoC . . . " compelling such a unit to move into B-B in either case. Does that make more sense?

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

And I'm suggesting that you accept the player is only compelled to move units into base contact during an assault if they used their move to enter the ZOC. Its perfectly legal for them to finish their move out of the ZOC and within firefight distance.



No. Attempting to force people to play by rules which you've made up, which is exactly what you're doing, is the very definition of unfair. To make an example what you're saying is not different from announcing its not 'unfair' to read the rules for grots has having 4+ reinforced armour saves...

You are trying to claim the assaulting player is forced to move his units into base contact, which is clearly not the case when the rules specificly point out that "There is no need for any units to get into base-to-base contact if you don't want them to."
Obviously, you are mistaken. Does that make more sense?

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Emphasis added.

The grammer here makes it clear that charging and moving out of ZoC are exclusive of each other - you must either charge and BtB if possible or move out of the ZoC and not charge. It also makes it clear that this is independant of how the unit ended up there. You always have the option to just move out of ZoC, but you cannot then assault any unit.

SG

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Hymirl, I do understand the point you are trying to put across. your logic goes something like this:-

1) Being in the enemy ZoC reduces the potential activation choices (under 1.7.3 3rd para), so the formation declares a charge

2) Because the unit is already in the ZoC it can move anywhere it likes (under 1.12.3 2nd para), so it can choose to move out of the ZoC and use its FF.

3) However another unit that actually enters the ZoC is compelled to attempt to get into B-B (under 1.7.3 2nd para).

However I think you have missed several quite important aspects in this argument

Firstly the rules are not written by a technical author; there are a number of glaring inconsistencies in them and I have tried (apparently unsuccessfully) to make you aware of this. eg 1.12.3 2nd para says you can go anywhere, while later the 4th para and 1.7.3 both spell out a situation where that is not true.  

More importantly your contention goes against the spirit of the rules as laid out in 1.7.3. 2nd para So, the only time a unit may enter an enemy unit's ZoC, even in a charge move, is to get into B-B with that enemy unit (1.12.3 4th para says the same thing:  "A charging unit that enters a zone of control must move into base contact with the nearest enemy whose zone of control has been entered")

You will no doubt reply that while it has declared an engage activation, the unit is using its charge move to move directly away, but the rule says "and use their charge move to get into base contact". This is why the unit is compelled to use its charge move to go directly towards the enemy to get into B-B, and in that sense I see no difference between the unit that has voluntarily entered the enemy ZoC and the one that finds itself already in the ZoC.

We all agree that a charging unit may elect to stop short of the ZoC and firefight, so it is not compelled to move into B-B (unless it gets into that ZoC). Equally a unit is not compelled to move, unless it finds itself in an enemy ZoC as SG says.  

However, as several of us have tried to point out, this is really making a mountain out of a molehill because the player has a number of ways of resolving the situation before getting to this point. What is it that you are having such difficulty with?

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

So in short: A unit moves or already is in an enemy unit's ZoC and it's formation takes an assault action it is forced to move into BtB and can't just stay where it is and FF?
So in order to use it's FF value (unless it is a Skimmer) the unit has to be 5 (10 in the case of Scouts)or more cm away from any enemy unit ?

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