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Discussion of Clipping Assaults

 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:47 pm 
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I hate to disagree, but historiclly this is exactly what happens both at the level of the individual, and also at the strategic level. At least part of the effect is caused by avoiding the bulk of the enemy forces (which are out of range or pointing the wrong way). Consider ther following:-

Sergeant A. York and a few others managed to enfilade several machine guns that were pinning down the US advance against German forces. 17 soldiers took part in the assault, whittled down to 8 by enemy fire, however sergeant York continued on alone, and single handed managed to kill sufficient enemy for the others to surrender to him, allowing the advance to resume.

On a macro level, the charge of the light brigade was effectively into the right flank of the advancing Russian army. It was unintentional, resulted in the Light brigade becoming 'broken' in our terms, but stopped the advancing Russians and effectively 'won' the battle (or more accurately it caused the Russians to break off their attack while they dealt with the threat).

It is worth noting that experienced players do attempt to get the additional assault resolution pips for BMs and formation numbers etc to tilt the assault in their favour, so using the Marines Vs Orcs example, the ideal clipping assult might be to have another formation fire on the Orcs, and then have four Devastators lead by a Chaplain in FF with three orcs from a 'uge warband. Despite being heavily outnumbered, with luck the devastators kill the three orks for no loss, and with the Chaplain will be 4+ on the resolution, killing off further orcs as hackdowns. This reflects the devastator's superior firepower wiping out successive waves of Orks as they try to get to grips with the marines, and ultimately the remainder running away - seems reasonable to me.

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:56 pm 
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Have to agree Ginger.

If the military effect clipping abstractly represents did not exist in real life then every battle would be won purely on who has the most soldiers and/or the most guns.

Some battles are, but many are not.

The morale and training of the soldiers plays a huge part.

If expertly trained storm troopers are able to keep pressure on a position (firing for BM's) whilst a flanking force hits an exposed position or from an unexpected direction (a Clipping assault) there is a good chance a low morale outnumbering force may surrender or retreat amidst the confusion.

Lilith- Your example frankly encourages my standpoint.

Marines open bolter fire on the leading edge of an Ork horde, killing some. The Orks ineffectually return fire having essentially been ambushed.

+1 to the Orks. There numbers have ensured they are still more likely to win the engagement and push the Marines off- despite the Marines initiating the attack when and where they wanted, catching the Orks in an ambush.

If the Ork formation has already come under heavy weapons fire, they are already in disarray, searching for the shooters, leaders barking orders to reorganise, etc (Blast Markers).

This is enough such that when the Orks are ambushed by a different set of Marines launching an attack from bolter fire range there is a chance of the Orks legging it.

+1 to the Marines.

A +/- 1 on an engagement, baring in mind, is very, very poor for the attacker who has decided to launch the engagement. If I don't have a +3 (with Marines usually Blast Markers and Inspiring) before rolling for casualties I'm likely not to engage.


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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:13 am 
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Quote: (Chroma @ Feb. 07 2010, 15:48 )

Quote: (McMullet @ Feb. 07 2010, 15:10 )

I think a clipping assault in a one-on-one situation is fine, but as others have said - supporting fire just doesn't make sense.

Remember that if the attaker only "clips" two enemy units in a target formation, the attacker's support fire can only target those two units, and that's if they even survive the initial clip.

*adds the above to list of Epic rules he's been playing wrong*

Cheers for clarifying that... :)

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:24 am 
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Quote: (McMullet @ Feb. 07 2010, 23:13 )

Quote: (Chroma @ Feb. 07 2010, 15:48 )

Quote: (McMullet @ Feb. 07 2010, 15:10 )

I think a clipping assault in a one-on-one situation is fine, but as others have said - supporting fire just doesn't make sense.

Remember that if the attaker only "clips" two enemy units in a target formation, the attacker's support fire can only target those two units, and that's if they even survive the initial clip.

*adds the above to list of Epic rules he's been playing wrong*

Cheers for clarifying that... :)

No problemo!

Only units that are "directly engaged", that is, able to actually participate/roll dice in the target or attacking formation are allowed to be targeted by support fire.

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:32 am 
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Quote: (Chroma @ Feb. 07 2010, 23:24 )

No problemo!

Only units that are "directly engaged", that is, able to actually participate/roll dice in the target or attacking formation are allowed to be targeted by support fire.

Hmm, learn something new everyday...

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:02 am 
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Was there ever a FAQ on that? The sentence is rather ambiguous. "units that are actually taking part in the assault" can be interpreted as:

1) Those units of the formations taking part in the assault (IE you can't allocate hits to enemy units lending support)

2) The units who actually rolled a CC of FF die in the assault.




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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:12 am 
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yea, that's a new one for me too. seems a bit odd and unrealistic (not shooting at closest unit to hit one further away) but i guess it takes clipping down a notch... very slightly


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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:30 am 
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Quote: (mnb @ Feb. 08 2010, 00:12 )

yea, that's a new one for me too. seems a bit odd and unrealistic (not shooting at closest unit to hit one further away) but i guess it takes clipping down a notch... very slightly

Well, it's no more odd or unrealistic than the units of the clipped formation being unable to fire on the supporters either.

At some point you have to rule where the supporting stops. Else it'll devolve into a table wide furball.

"OK, I clip the Mech Company with my Skorchas. And support with the Blitz Brigade."
"Cool. The Blitz is in range of the Baneblades."
"Well, these Stormboyz are in range of the Heavies."
"But these Leman Russ are in range of the Orks!"

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:44 am 
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Quote: (Morgan Vening @ Feb. 07 2010, 19:30 )

Well, it's no more odd or unrealistic than the units of the clipped formation being unable to fire on the supporters either.

You can always look at it as an abstraction the rules take. IE, troops are more likely to shoot at the maniac charging at them with a chainsaw sword rather than some guys on their flank taking pot shots at them.  :p

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:48 am 
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Quote: (mnb @ Feb. 08 2010, 00:12 )

yea, that's a new one for me too. seems a bit odd and unrealistic (not shooting at closest unit to hit one further away) but i guess it takes clipping down a notch... very slightly

It's actually more to the benefit of the defender as it prevents the attacker from moving support units up to the "tough" end of a large formation then performing a clipping attack on a "softer" area 30cm away and still getting support attacks on units that could do nothing during the assault.




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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:58 am 
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Quote: (Dave @ Feb. 08 2010, 00:02 )

Was there ever a FAQ on that? The sentence is rather ambiguous. "units that are actually taking part in the assault" can be interpreted as:

1) Those units of the formations taking part in the assault (IE you can't allocate hits to enemy units lending support)

2) The units who actually rolled a CC of FF die in the assault.

No FAQ as far as I know, but discussed at regular intervals. The reasoning behind this definition is that it stops the alternative and abusive situation where a huge supporting force can fight without suffering any return fire.

The 2008 FAQ and errata further restricted this by only permitting supporting fire to take place where some of the original attackers have survived the assault (to prevent 'token' assaults bringing in the massed support fire).

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