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Tau vs Space Marines

 Post subject: Tau vs Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:16 am 
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Honda (or anyone else), I hate to ask this but, is it completely necessary for Skyray range to be 60cm? We might solve an issue here if the range was perhaps reduced to what most other lists get in AA range. We could then perhaps keep the Skyray formation chugging along as is (or even drop the price for the fm and the single upgrade) and we could perhaps boost the AA on the Barracuda a bit as well? We may even reduce the Tau's "near-impervious to air assault" umbrella that some folks seem to find.

That's basically what I was trying to say. I acknowledge and point out that I am new to the game in general, playing against tau for the first time, and playing against chris who seems a fairly hardened veteran of the game. But even with all that in consideration (I expect to lose games against chris, and lose them hard, but learn something) the Tau just seems really rock-paper-scissors against marines. They have access to full board AA at a fairly cheap cost (no "I'll just fly through it and pray" AA but rather "That move is utter suicide" AA) which means that marine air assaults are near impossible and placing blast markers with planes is also no going to happen. And their good, high range overwatch formations means you can't move your ground forces in to suppress or break the tau formations you need to deal with early.

Edit: Also, Flying shadowswords for less cost?!? Really?





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 Post subject: Tau vs Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:33 am 
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Shh, don't mention the A-10's :)

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 Post subject: Tau vs Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:50 am 
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Quote: (Honda @ Nov. 24 2009, 11:42 )

@TRC: Also, just for the sake of discussion, if Skyrays were 275 each, what adjustments would you have made to your list?

Well bear in mind I intended to have 2 skyray formations but was in a hurry.
I guess the list would look something like

350 Crisis, SC
275 Skyrays
275 Skyrays
175 Pathfinders
225 FW
175 Pathfinders
150 Recon 3/3
150 Recon 3/3
225 FW
150 Recon 1/5
150 Recon 1/5
150 Recon 1/5
350 A-10s
150 Barracuda

50 points for one more Crisis (probably), 2 bonded teams or 3 kroot hounds for a laugh.


For Skyray flak comparison the best existing formation is the book Fire Prism formation (with its 60cm lance shot).

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 Post subject: Tau vs Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:45 pm 
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Quote: 

We may even reduce the Tau's "near-impervious to air assault" umbrella that some folks seem to find.


Again, this is one game where the Skyrays shot the T-birds down. There are other (more in fact) examples where the Skyrays did not prevent a Thunderhawk assault. So, I am watching this very closely, but am waiting on evidence to convince me that something other than a potential cost bump is necessary.

Quote: 

That's basically what I was trying to say. I acknowledge and point out that I am new to the game in general, playing against tau for the first time, and playing against chris who seems a fairly hardened veteran of the game. But even with all that in consideration (I expect to lose games against chris, and lose them hard, but learn something) the Tau just seems really rock-paper-scissors against marines. They have access to full board AA at a fairly cheap cost (no "I'll just fly through it and pray" AA but rather "That move is utter suicide" AA) which means that marine air assaults are near impossible and placing blast markers with planes is also no going to happen. And their good, high range overwatch formations means you can't move your ground forces in to suppress or break the tau formations you need to deal with early.


Fortis, I'm not trying to deny that you were beat up pretty bad and that the Tau don't have advantages over the SM. But so do other lists. I'm also not trying to say that you're a bad player, you sound quite competent to me. However, you also do not know what you are dealing with if you have not studied the list. TRC has been playing Tau for awhile and on top of that is a well respected player.

But you don't know what you are fighting against. In that sort of situation, would you expect any different result?

Right now you are focusing on Tau strengths, or in some cases, perceived strengths. What are the Tau weaknesses? Any thoughts? Look at the FF and CC values of all their units. Understand that they do not have any SHT vehicles except for the Manta. Understand that they do not have any weapons that fire indirectly or use templates. Note that their formations are not very large. The Skyray formations you ran into will break by shooting at them and causing one casualty.

"Know your enemy and know your self and in one hundred battles you will never be defeated" - Sun Tzu

Quote: 

Edit: Also, Flying shadowswords for less cost?!? Really?


Yes, the Tau have flying guns. How much damage do they take? Anywhere near what a Shadowsword formation can handle? How about the armor save? Can Shadowswords be shot down or suppressed by AA? Let' make sure our comparisons are apples to apples.

Understand the Tau strengths, but exploit their weaknesses.

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 Post subject: Tau vs Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:18 pm 
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I totally get it honda and I'm coming from it from more of a "these are my notes from the game" angle then a "this stuff should be changed angle".

The shadowsword comment was more of a joke between me and chris. They do seem a little *too* good, but I'm sure you guys have gone through it before and considered how good they need to be. The combo with the markerlights was particularly effective for example, but if tau need something to reliably blow up super-heavies anywhere on the board then fair enough.

I know the development is going on at the moment and getting a bit heated so I thought the more information I could give from a newbie's perspective the better. I completely agree that I'm not in a position to properly understand where the balances are in the list and the moderation in abilities.

My only real problem was that it sort of felt that it was a case of Tau auto-win against Marines. A concept that really jars with me in epic after seeing so much of it in 40k. Something that I didn't feel from the other side of the table when Chris beat the hell out of me with chaos.

Just some thoughts really. And you're perfectly within rights to refer to me as a bad player, I'm still fairly terrible.  :p


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 Post subject: Tau vs Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:19 pm 
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Fortis, apologies as I don't want you to think that I'm beating on you. In reading back on my post, I think that came out a bit harsh. What I was trying to point out, unsuccessfully, is the chinks in the Tau armor.

I play my SMs as an all drop pod/air assault force. I look forward to playing against the Tau because once I am in knife fight range, the Tau get cut up pretty badly. So do look into options that get you close quick or quicker.

As a primarily Imperial player, I look forward to your future victories over xenos scum.  :agree:

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 Post subject: Tau vs Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:57 pm 
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Quote: (Fortis @ Nov. 25 2009, 08:18 )

And you're perfectly within rights to refer to me as a bad player, I'm still fairly terrible.  :p

I wouldn't say you're a bad player Fortis, just that Chris is a very very good one, with an excellent understanding of the rules and each army's strengths and weaknesses. In every game I've played against him (apart from one where he was goofing around) he's always targetted the most vital part of my army, usually crippling me from the 1st activation.

It's a learning process and sometimes it's a painful one, but I've never failed to learn something from a loss, which is the whole point after all.

SM aren't an easy army to play either, particularly against a long range shooty army.

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 Post subject: Tau vs Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:59 pm 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ Nov. 24 2009, 19:37 )

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Don't forget as well that 3 Firestorms can be had for 175pts (6 at 4+, though a lesser range) and Hydra fms are even cheaper.

Yep their range is only 45cm though

that's very true Dobbsy, I was just trying to highlight that the Skyray fm is minimum 75pt more expensive, with better range but slightly worse to hit value. Whether that, plus the guided missiles + ML = 75pts or not, I don't know.

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 Post subject: Tau vs Space Marines
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:30 am 
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Just to re-iterate I think the 3 fire prisms is a fairy comparison. 3 Firestorms for 175 is silly good (compare to a Hydra formation which is a a good staple of the Imperial Guard - Skimmer, higher speed, higher save, better gun, better firepower, strat 4, special rules).

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