Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion

 Post subject: EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:06 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
Quote: 

I really can't see any reason at all why Crisis Suits aren't all 1+ initiative. They are the elite of the elite, trained to react "on the bounce" to Crises.

Honda's argument about their low Initiative value in 40k holds no water, since the two Initiative stats have literally nothing in common. Both use the same word for entirely different concepts.

40k Initiative represents how quickly a unit can react in close combat. This is represented in Epic by the reduced CC stat (on a direct translation Crisis Suits should really have at least CC 5+).

Epic Initiative represents how trained a formation is, how well it reacts to orders and how resistant it is to adverse psychology. Crisis Suits are, to me at least, the epitome of a unit type that deserves the highest initiative around.


This comment is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion as agreed by all parties. When you see a dead horse in the road, don't stop to kick it.

Again, I'm not saying "no" to Init +1, but "I feel, I really can't see, etc." isn't the swaying point. E&C's counterpoint is of value and I'm not ignoring the point, I'm just making the decision to hold on any change until a later point. Further examples in play test of "I rolled to take X action, failed, therefore I had to do..." are what I would call solid data points that help with the decision making.

Keep in mind, without some pushback, every unit would have Init +1 and hit on +2. That's an extreme example, but I hope it helps everyone understand my position.

Pathfinders: Again, holding on any change. I am open to an upgrade for a single unit ala SM Scouts. The modeling issue, isn't.

FW Cost: Again, I've heard the points. I don't disagree, I am holding off on any potential changes until a later time.

Let's leavce it at that for now. Any other discussion on this is circular.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:09 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
Any response at all is going to be "I feel" or "I see it as". None of us are without prejudice, so I can't understand exactly what you are asking for.

I've tried to explain the reasons behind my opinions, namely making it more background representative. What else do you want?

I'm yet to see a single valid reason why they are 2+ initiative. Please enlighten me.

I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I genuinely don't understand how you expect us to give opinions that don't include opinions.




_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:16 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Quote: 

What else do you want?

I believe he wants playtests showing them to be underpowered, rather than (admittedly consistent) theory and opinion.

I'll see about convincing Ryan to play a game with multiple Crisis formations, in order to show how they're currently a very poor choice.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:17 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:52 pm
Posts: 4262
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 23 2009, 12:48 )

Quote: (Honda @ Oct. 23 2009, 12:16 )

5. RE: Hammerheads effectiveness/costs: Did the HHs ever take advantage of ML'd targets?


No,I shot the Markerlights too much. :)
Once, when they did 2DC of damage to the Baneblade. The rest of the time the nearby Skyray was either surpressed or broken.

I don't see any way that a markerlight can be suppressed? It's not a weapon, its a special rule with documented limits on marching and broken. Other than in those 2 circumstances you have a 30cm 'bubble' around any unit with a markerlight allowing for LOF blocking terrain.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:20 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
We've always treated it as surpressable in the same manner as a weapon (so supressed from the back).

Apparently incorrectly!




_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:26 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Thought of another option for Pathfinders instead of Sniper:

In the Taros Campaign army list (and most probably early SG Tau army lists, I'm guessing without going back to check), Pathfinders grant an extra +1 to-hit with their Markerlights.

So Pathfinders could grant +2 to-hit, giving them again a unique niche.
Such an ability would need a price increase for both the formation and the upgrade choice.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 23 2009, 14:16 )

Quote: 

What else do you want?

I believe he wants playtests showing them to be underpowered, rather than (admittedly consistent) theory and opinion.

But the issue isn't one of game balance, it's one of representation.

Game balance isn't the only thing of importance; reducto ad absurdum it'd be easy to make all lists balanced against each other by just copying the same list each time and just changing the unit names. Perfect balance but not background representative.

You can't show lack of background representation with a playtest.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:32 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Quote: 

You can't show lack of background representation with a playtest.

But you can show that Crisis formations are under-performing, and need an ability increase...

...and if that ability increase allows them to match the background better, then that's all for the better*.



* Or the 'Greater Good', as it were. Ho ho.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:59 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:52 pm
Posts: 289
Location: London
Sorry to interupt a slightly heated debate, but don't you guys live together?

Whenever I see you commenting one after the other I just imagine you both sitting on the sofa, laptops on knees, typing furiously and scowling at each other.  :laugh:


'Cup of tea zombocom?' he said through gritted teeth.

'Only if you make tea better than can you can make well-supported arguments E&C!'

'Why you little-'

*THWACK!!*



:oo:

Lolz.

_________________
Great Scott!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:13 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Quote: (Moronguhl @ Oct. 23 2009, 14:59 )

Sorry to interupt a slightly heated debate, but don't you guys live together?

It's worse that that... they live together and they're brothers!!!   :laugh:

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:22 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Quote: (Moronguhl @ Oct. 23 2009, 14:59 )

'Cup of tea zombocom?' he said through gritted teeth.

'Only if you make tea better than can you can make well-supported arguments E&C!'

'Why you little-'

*THWACK!!*



:oo:

Lolz.

Actually when both at home we wear top hats and tails, and respond to each others ripostes with gentlemanly nods of 'Touche' and 'Well put, sir!'.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:31 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:52 pm
Posts: 289
Location: London
Quote: (Chroma @ Oct. 23 2009, 15:13 )

Quote: (Moronguhl @ Oct. 23 2009, 14:59 )

Sorry to interupt a slightly heated debate, but don't you guys live together?

It's worse that that... they live together and they're brothers!!!   :laugh:

I know! Imagine the sitcom possibilities!  :grin:

_________________
Great Scott!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 2:38 am
Posts: 70
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 23 2009, 14:32 )

Quote: 

You can't show lack of background representation with a playtest.

But you can show that Crisis formations are under-performing, and need an ability increase...

...and if that ability increase allows them to match the background better, then that's all for the better*.

Has the possibility of making Crisis Suits not receive a penalty when retaining been considered?  In this way, they can stay initiative 2+ but still be more effective in their "primary" role of rapid reaction.





Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:31 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
I would note there that the Tau list already has a lot of Special Rules, and I don't think adding another is nessesary.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: EA Tau 6.01 vs. NetEA Steel Legion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:45 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Besides, E&C has it correct. Why were they increased to 2+ when there has been no data etc to back up that change. They've been 1+ initiative since I remember - with no complaints whatsoever. Now all of a sudden an unwarranted change has been implemented without consultation with the Tau community.

Honda, and I say this quite respectfully, why did you change the stat without talking about it first? It just seems to have added another unnecessary level of debate when we all seemed to be moving in the same direction for once in our lives here in Tau land.

Quote: 

I know! Imagine the sitcom possibilities

Add in a small child and you have Two and a half men   :laugh:





Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 32 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net