I guess just Dobsy said if I wanted to play so much air power or against it then I would choose to play Aeronautica Imperialis.

But it is a fact of Epic GT play, which is what games are supposed to be balanced for.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

All I hear is crying wah! wah! wah!

Get a dummy so you can spit it out.

Either deal with the army lists or do not play. Simple as that. Why should I waste time to defend a force most armies can make to opponents that are only used to playing in their own metagame.

If a force or forces (I can repeat like forces with at least 3 other official army lists)come out and destroy your little world of how a game 'should be played', then you need to start to adapt, or die along with all the other disgruntled old gamers who are quick to call 'schmuk' when in reality it is a failing of their own generalship that is the real issue.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

Seriously Frogbear - and I say this calmly and politely - you're so defensive. I'm sure you misread what people here post. None of the posts I've put up here are anywhere near attacking you or calling you a schmuck, yet you always seem to take offense somehow and come back with backhanders (e.g your last sentence above).

I've tried to be completely objective with my responses here and are aimed at helping you (and have also been a discussion with TRC), but if you can't take simple feedback (and I hate to think what would happen if it was criticism) or put up with subsequent dicussion about this list and some of the aspects, then perhaps you should have a second look at what you want from this endeavour.

Would you prefer if I didn't post in any of your threads? It often seems that way. I'd be disappointed, but if that's how you felt, I would stop.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not angry here so please don't take it that way.

Dude

You consistently either ignore or claim ignorance of examples. In that case it is not worth the discussion.

The list will continue with or without the discussion. Just re-read you posts and you will see you are just whining about issues that also relate back to the battle report against your army.

When TRC and Blish are beating such forces, why is it that you personally have an issue with them. Air forces are part of the game. The reference to Aeronautica is just plain coy and I am not the only person to say that of you. It does not help and forms no basis for your justifications against such a force.

It is not your replies to the army list (World Eaters) I object to, it is your reasonings behind your observations of the format of the army taken (fliers). They are not anything new, yet the way you are wailing, you would think that it is a new addition to the rules.

I seriously think you need to step back and re-consider postings where you justify your long history of gaming (like none of us have ever gamed as long with strategic games?) and maybe see that as an equal part of the game as War Engines, fliers are an aspect that need to be considerred in an army list. Opinions do not count unless they take into account all aspects of the rules.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

I'm going to try and be objective here.

In almost all of the existent lists, AA is a fairly minor increase in cost/decrease in efficiency, that larger numbers shouldn't seriously impact it.

The Hunter is the same cost as a Predator Annihilator, trading 2xAT5+ for an AA4+ and Save vs Range. The Hydra has about twice the firepower of a Chimera for twice the cost, and trades transport capacity for AA. The FlakWagon is essentially a Gunwagon (mathwise) with AA at the expense of range. And the Firestorm isn't garbage. So you trade off a little bit of offence for a better protection envelope.

Or, you can completely ignore fliers, and try to work on the basis that with regards objective capturing (ie, the way to win the game in GT scenarios), you outnumber your opponent by anywhere up to 50%. Hit hard, remove his ability to capture those objectives, weather the storm of the fliers, and the game should be yours.

All of the above armies can easily spend close to 1000pts on fliers, to similar effect, as Chaos, and all have the same trade off, Fliers or War Machines. I know I prefer my opponent to have Fliers.

If the argument is that Fliers are too powerful, it should be it's own thread, and not used as an issue with a single list. Because either the system is endemic to the system, or it's not.

If the argument is that Hellblades/Helltalons are too powerful, it should be taken to the Black Legion Playtest thread, because that's where those stats are taken from, and without modification there, can't be expected to be accepted here.

Morgan Vening

Actually my reference to AI was a joke and you missed that as well And who's wailing? Come on. You read into everything.

Nah there actually wasn't an argument about the power of the aircraft. In fact the stats aren't even debate in this thread. My point was that it's unusual to see so many aircraft. Plain and simple. I recognise it's absolutely possible to take these forces and I have no problem with that as they're in the army lists. I was simply replying to Frogbear's post saying that air was the WEs weakness when it obviously isn't, and wasn't as easily exploitable as Frogbear seems to believe. Unfortunately the discussion has since turned into pseudo-insults about people's playing abilities and direct insults about being cry babies. It's a shame as it was an interesting discussion from my point of view.  

Take a look at the top placing army lists in the UK tournaments. Aircraft are everywhere



Funny how this was the same point I brought up way back when in your lists and you ignored it. Funny what playtests will bring to the table....

Air defence is a weakness of the World Eaters. Other than fliers, they have none. Hence any air defence (being fliers in this case) takes away from their ability to secure objectives. They do not really cause all that much damage. They are a nuissance yes, but not as destructive as the same points taken on a Titan.

Playtests bring these things out, and if a change is necessary (which at this point I do not see it is without a wider range of opponents dying in swathes even with balanced lists), then I will personally not hold onto a broken section of the list like a rabid dog. It will be fixed.



And the way you expressed it above came across alot less confrontational than your original posts. Keep the grandstanding (years of experience as a justification for views) out of your responses and there will be less retorts to the same effect.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

Topic closed as it has gone beyond development requirements.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats