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Assault question
asaura
 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:53 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 04 Aug. 2009, 10:06 )

Or you could make it so that formations with a Commander can choose their counter-charge direction.

Any rule which allows countercharging away from the original attackers will be used to run away and avoid FF fire. This is likely to not work as intended.

Spitballing is good, though. And I agree that Commander needs some love. Lots of it, come to think of it. As it stands, the poor IG Commanders seem to never get any mileage out of it.
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:08 am 
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Actually this is a very interesting idea.

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Morgan Vening
 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:16 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 04 Aug. 2009, 11:12 )

Quote: (dptdexys @ 04 Aug. 2009, 11:29 )

If after counter charges there are no units within 15cm then the assault stalls.

This is already covered in the counter charge rules(in bold)

If part of the charge rules state that an assault would stall if there are no units within 15cm of the target. Then as all the charge rules apply to counter charges the same would be the case after counter charges,assault would stall.

1.12.4 Counter Charges
An assault represents a brutal short-range battle involving
movement, shooting and close combat. Although the
assaulting formation will have initiated the combat, the
defending formation will have time to react to the enemy
assault and make limited moves of their own. To
represent this, units from the defending formation
involved in the assault are allowed to make a special
move called a counter charge.
Defending units that are not already in base contact with
an enemy unit are allowed to counter charge. Units with
a speed of 30cm or more may make a counter charge
move of 10cm. Units with a speed of 25cm or less may
make a counter charge move of 5cm. Counter charges
happen after the engaging formation has finished moving
and any overwatch shots have been taken, but before the
combat is resolved. All the normal charge move rules
apply, and defending formations must still be in a legal
formation after the counter charge moves have been
made (ie, all units must be within 5cm of another unit
from their formation). Embarked units may dismount.


I think this is very good point.

I did as well, and was going to post it as evidence, until I read a little 'deeper'.

There is an actual rule for 'charge move' that is seperate from Make Charge Moves.

A formation undertaking an engage action is allowed to make one move (not a double distance move as is the case in many sets of wargame rules, not least many Games Workshop games), and then fights an assault against the enemy formation that was chosen as the target of the charge. This move is known as the charge move.

Make the move normally, as described in the movement rules given previously. Once the move is complete, the engaging formation must have at least one unit within 15cms of a unit from the target formation.

The italicized section is actually in the rules, and would be hard to argue that there isn't a difference between the rules of the entire section, and the rules of a 'charge move'.

Just FAQ it, and be done with it, IMO.

Morgan Vening

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:04 pm 
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Question:

Had the B2 formation been closer (5cm say) and A countercharged and made Base-to-Base contact with a B2 unit, what would happen?  Bearing in mind that B1 is now out of range.

Similar situation, but now what?  It seems that Hena's example and mine should have the same solution...  

If the assault stops (I won't use the term stall here for obvious reasons) then you have two formations in B-t-B contact- not unheard of but certainly strange.

If the assault goes to resolution then, well it is resolved. :oo:  Anyways, some comments/answers would be great.
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dptdexys
 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:17 pm 
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Question:

Had the B2 formation been closer (5cm say) and A countercharged and made Base-to-Base contact with a B2 unit, what would happen?  Bearing in mind that B1 is now out of range.

Similar situation, but now what?  It seems that Hena's example and mine should have the same solution...  


B2 would have to be out of 5cm as being exactly 5cm away would actually be in the Zone of Control of A.

If B2 was out of 5cm but inside 10cm and A had 10cm counter charge move and managed to reach BtoB with B2 then it would be dragged into the assault and the assault would go ahead even if B1 was then out of effective range.

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vytzka
 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:20 pm 
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Quote: (dptdexys @ 04 Aug. 2009, 16:17 )

B2 would have to be out of 5cm as being exactly 5cm away would actually be in the Zone of Control of A.

If B2 was out of 5cm but inside 10cm and A had 10cm counter charge move and managed to reach BtoB with B2 then it would be dragged into the assault and the assault would go ahead even if B1 was then out of effective range.

That's the way I'm reading it as well. Also B1 wouldn't be able to participate in the assault but be considered "intermingled" with B2 for purposes of total blast markers, numbers, Inspiring characters, etc.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:24 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ 04 Aug. 2009, 14:04 )

---
As for Tneva, this is a perfect example of a MOD not doing their job.  

I'm not a mod on this specific forum, but I don't believe mods cruise the boards looking for trouble, but they do respond to posts flagged via that "Report" button at the bottom of every post.

Please use that reporting ability if you feel anyone is violating board policy.

Thanks.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:32 pm 
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So thematically what is different between the two examples?  The only difference is in the B-t-B contact then?  This goes back to another thread I had posted on where the counter-charge was brought up.  I find that the same quirk in the counter-charge rule being responsible for two strange occurrences to be illuminating.

What would happen if formation A were allowed to Firefight against B2 after countercharging toward them?  I'm not pro or con on the topic, just asking if that would resolve the problem.

---

Here is another question: In Hena's example, it appears the closest units in formation A to B2 should charge in the direction of B2.  HOWEVER, the units from formation A that were closest to B1 should have charged in the direction of B1.  Unless you have a long thin line of single stands being precisely assaulted from opposite directions that have a 1cm difference, this should never have happened.

Units from A should have counter-charged toward the closest formations, which would have resulted in formation A splitting in two (or at least starting to).  Even if they bottom units (the ones closest to B1) didn't move at all, the assault would have continued.

EDIT Nevermind.  I went back and looked at the pic and the "long thin line" is exactly what happened.  Move along, nothing to see here! :tongue:




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zombocom
 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:34 pm 
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Quote: (vytzka @ 04 Aug. 2009, 14:20 )

Quote: (dptdexys @ 04 Aug. 2009, 16:17 )

B2 would have to be out of 5cm as being exactly 5cm away would actually be in the Zone of Control of A.

If B2 was out of 5cm but inside 10cm and A had 10cm counter charge move and managed to reach BtoB with B2 then it would be dragged into the assault and the assault would go ahead even if B1 was then out of effective range.

That's the way I'm reading it as well. Also B1 wouldn't be able to participate in the assault but be considered "intermingled" with B2 for purposes of total blast markers, numbers, Inspiring characters, etc.

I also agree this is the way to play that somewhat odd situation.

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dptdexys
 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:42 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 04 Aug. 2009, 14:34 )

Quote: (vytzka @ 04 Aug. 2009, 14:20 )

Quote: (dptdexys @ 04 Aug. 2009, 16:17 )

B2 would have to be out of 5cm as being exactly 5cm away would actually be in the Zone of Control of A.

If B2 was out of 5cm but inside 10cm and A had 10cm counter charge move and managed to reach BtoB with B2 then it would be dragged into the assault and the assault would go ahead even if B1 was then out of effective range.

That's the way I'm reading it as well. Also B1 wouldn't be able to participate in the assault but be considered "intermingled" with B2 for purposes of total blast markers, numbers, Inspiring characters, etc.

I also agree this is the way to play that somewhat odd situation.

In years gone by we've had this happen often.

We try to be more careful now when trying to set up support for assaults  :agree: .
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vytzka
 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:43 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ 04 Aug. 2009, 16:32 )

Here is another question: In Hena's example, it appears the closest units in formation A to B2 should charge in the direction of B2.  HOWEVER, the units from formation A that were closest to B1 should have charged in the direction of B1.  Unless you have a long thin line of single stands being precisely assaulted from opposite directions that have a 1cm difference, this should never have happened.

Units from A should have counter-charged toward the closest formations, which would have resulted in formation A splitting in two (or at least starting to).  Even if they bottom units (the ones closest to B1) didn't move at all, the assault would have continued.

EDIT Nevermind.  I went back and looked at the pic and the "long thin line" is exactly what happened.  Move along, nothing to see here! :tongue:

Not necessarily. In my game we had a situation like this (IIRC).

A formation of stormtroopers doubled and shot at a warhound from a pretty close range. They ended up in a not very long line about 7-8 cm away from the hound (which they didn't manage to actually dent).

Then I clipped one end of the formation with my speeders which were like 12-13 centimeters away in base contact with each other, perpendicular to the stormtropper formation. The Warhound was still the closest enemy to every single unit there.
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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:46 pm 
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Quote: (rpr @ 04 Aug. 2009, 07:38 )

Quote: (Chroma @ 03 Aug. 2009, 18:54 )

Again, the rules never considered the defender being able to move "away" from the attacker.

Obviously they did not, and I'm driving an initiative that rules handle this issue. It is not that uncommon...

Wow what a long thread and I'm going to add to it. I wonder how many of the original playtesters are still posting here. I say this as in the original 'lets see if we can break these' rules, the set that you could get emailed to you if you responded with a question to the guideline rules, the working of counter charges was that the defending unit received a 5cm move after the initial charges.

Now I put on my Rules Lawyer/Powergamer/Playtester hat and went great if I'm playing my Guard and a Marine gets into BtB contact I can move out of it with my move. 'No' I was told, once you are in BtB you can not move.

Fair enough I said, so if my enemy can only get with in 15-10cm I can use my move to move away from them out of range stopping the action or behind some terraine/war engine etc. Oh came the reply, lets modify the rules so that you have to move towards the enemy, this later became the nearest enemy as a lawyer could justify moving towards an enemy on the other flank if it was to his benefit.

I say the above so that newer players know that these things were atleast considered in my group at the time and commented upon.

If the attacker has left himself in the position where there are units of another one of his formations closer to the nearest attacked unit than his attacking units then yes they must move away from the attacking units, if they desire.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:02 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 04 Aug. 2009, 09:24 )

Quote: (Moscovian @ 04 Aug. 2009, 14:04 )

---
As for Tneva, this is a perfect example of a MOD not doing their job.  

I'm not a mod on this specific forum, but I don't believe mods cruise the boards looking for trouble, but they do respond to posts flagged via that "Report" button at the bottom of every post.

Please use that reporting ability if you feel anyone is violating board policy.

Thanks.

Funny enough, I have never used it and as such tuned it out.  Thanks!

I take back my MOD comment.  Consider it reported.

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