Assault happens if there are enemies within 15cm after charge move. No such requirement for post-counter charge move. Therefore assault happens normally even if defenders counter charge outside 15cm.

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www.tneva.net

tneva - your the one decrying rules lawyers but the only person being a rules lawyer in this debate

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NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Rules-lawyering arguments aside, we have a question to answer about what happens in this situation.

Do we apply RAW, or do we determine that this is sufficiently outside the scope of what the rules contemplate that we can depart from it and develop a spirit-of-the-rules FAQ?

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Neal

How it rewards attacker when this only happens if both sides want it? Defenders cannot get this if attacker doesn't want it. Attacker can't get this if defender doesn't want it. It rewards NEITHER since they both need to want it.

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www.tneva.net

The defender has the final move and therefore has final choice.

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Neal

Attacker can ensure defender cannot get out of range if he doesn't. He's the one dictating where defenders will move if they move at all afterall. Defender can only stay put or move where attacker wants them to move.

Both sides needs to be willing to resolve assault without attack rolls for this to work. Attacker can't do it by himself and neither can defender. Defender can't move where attacker doesn't want him to move and attacker can't force defender to move.

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www.tneva.net

So guys, the rules explicitly cover the situation where the attacker fails to get units into range, but do not clearly cover this situation where the defenders move out of assault range. There appears to be two ways to consider this dilema:-

1) As there are no units in range the assault does not take place, and the game passes on to the next activation.

2) The situation represents light fighting that results in no casualties, and so passes immediately to the assault resolution.

Note it is effectively up to the defender whether to take advantage of the misplaced supports etc and counter-charge out of range of the attackers. I might add that this presumably improves the defender's chances even though that may well not be enough to win the assault.

I would still recommend that the FAQ declare this a 'failed assault' (option 1). The attacker will usually have set up the assault in his favour, so it is up to him to make sure the assault takes place. So IMHO under these conditions, adopting this approach is likely to be best for the defender.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

I agree with Ginger. FAQ it. Noone within 15cm, no engagement takes place.

But I can see arguments for the other. An example I can see being weird is two units with no FF (like Plague Zombies/some Lesser Daemons/Kroot Hounds) ending within 15cm, but no dice being rolled.

Morgan Vening

This situation actually came up once in my game against Asaura too. Neither of us was sure how to solve it, but Asaura gracefully decided to not countercharge and allow me to continue the assault. Now it seems to me that he didn't have to do that and would have been perfectly in the right if the assault simply didn't happen (but at least now I know what to expect in situations like that).

And I really want to dispute the statement that Ropecon tourney was somehow a den of ruleslawyering tools. My experiences in all three games including against you (tneva82) were nothing short of pleasant (well, I guess drawing at least one would have been nice ). But maybe you consider myself one of the ruleslawyering tools as well, in which case I apologize for whatever offences I unintentionally committed.

Obviously they did not, and I'm driving an initiative that rules handle this issue. It is not that uncommon...

So as in other thread, my proposition is that counter-charge is toward attacker, not closest foe. (I have other propositions, too, there O:)

Anyway, the rules would still need a clear note what would happen if all defenders in range disappear during counter-move - for example, failed terrain test. I would say the attack just gets canceled (but I might give the retaliation move to attacker)

If after counter charges there are no units within 15cm then the assault stalls.

This is already covered in the counter charge rules(in bold)

If part of the charge rules state that an assault would stall if there are no units within 15cm of the target. Then as all the charge rules apply to counter charges the same would be the case after counter charges,assault would stall.

1.12.4 Counter Charges
An assault represents a brutal short-range battle involving
movement, shooting and close combat. Although the
assaulting formation will have initiated the combat, the
defending formation will have time to react to the enemy
assault and make limited moves of their own. To
represent this, units from the defending formation
involved in the assault are allowed to make a special
move called a counter charge.
Defending units that are not already in base contact with
an enemy unit are allowed to counter charge. Units with
a speed of 30cm or more may make a counter charge
move of 10cm. Units with a speed of 25cm or less may
make a counter charge move of 5cm. Counter charges
happen after the engaging formation has finished moving
and any overwatch shots have been taken, but before the
combat is resolved. All the normal charge move rules
apply, and defending formations must still be in a legal
formation after the counter charge moves have been
made (ie, all units must be within 5cm of another unit
from their formation). Embarked units may dismount.

As for the countercharge rule I'm happy as it is.

If I get caught by support formations pinning troops and keeping them out of an assault I think of it as a nice pincer move/Ambush etc. so well played my opponent  .

If there is a call to change the counter charge rule why not playtest giving the defender the choice to counter charge to EITHER the attacking formation or the nearest enemy unit.

Or you could make it so that formations with a Commander can choose their counter-charge direction. Commanders need some love.

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