That's not what rules say however. Rules are perfectly crystal clear and since people have no problems with counter charge rules then they shouldn't have problem with this rule because this is created by counter charge rules!

You can't just have your cake and eat it too. If you don't have problems with broken counter charge rules(like E&C doesn't have) then you shouldn't have problems with this because it's direct result of those broken counter assault rules. Resulting situation however is very clear rulewise.

And I won't be playing epic not because of this but because a) I can't play at home(or should I play against myself on floor? LOL!) b) tournaments have unfair rules where unneccessary armies for which you need to be good converter like DARK ELDARS are allowed while core armies like TYRANIDS aren't allowed even if you handicap yourself by only fielding 50% of points aren't allowed. Different situation which should be clear to anybody who bothers to read a bit what I write.

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The situation would seem to me to be analogous to those where overwatch fire leaves no attacking units in range, or when no units from the attacking formation make it into range in the first place (which is rare with pre-measuring, but can still happen if players are careless). In which case, as I understand it, no assault takes place. Why would the fact that a counter-charge has taken place mean that an assault has to occur, even with no units participating, when a charge move doesn't?

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Assault is started if after charge move there are attackers within 15cm. Only other scenario where results don't happen is if attack is stalled. Stalling is specifically attacking units being killed so if you claim that this is stalling you are claiming attacking units are killed(ie removed from play) after defenders counter charge out of range.

Fix the broken counter charge rules and this issue goes away instantly.

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Speaking as a seasoned cake eater, I frequently get the cake and eat it in over 90% of cake related encounters.

And I won't be playing epic not because of this

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I would say yes.

CAKE

Being as vegan as i possily can i usually get offered cake and choose not to eat it...but i COULD if i wanted...complicated no?

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I don't like cake at all.

Can I eat a pizza instead?

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No, they aren't perfectly crystal clear.  The rules and their definitions have readily identifiable assumptions about the game situation that are not applicable to this example.

and since people have no problems with counter charge rules then they shouldn't have problem with this rule because this is created by counter charge rules!

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Neal

What's so non-clear here?

Assault happens if there are attacking units within 15cm after charge move. In the situation that happened. There's NO requirement in anywhere in the rules for assaulting units to be within 15cm after counter charge moves which happens after charge move(and whether assault takes place or not) is determined.

Assault resolution happens if assault wasn't stalled. Stalling in turn happens when attacking units are killed. They weren't killed here(or are you seriously claiming they were killed because defenders counter charged outside of range? Isn't that "bit" cheap method to kill say warlord titan? Warlord titan gets careless and defenders move outside range and as a result warlord is removed from play? Yea right...) and ergo assault did not stall. As there are only 2 results for assaults(stalling and normal resolution) there is only one result that is applied. The normal resolution.

Simple and clear.

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But no one is suggesting actually removing the models! Merely that, as there are no longer any models in 15cm FF range the assault COUNTS AS having stalled as though kills HAD been inflicted.

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Where do you get this idea that people are saying the attackers are 'killed' in this situation, no one has said that at all.

We're looking at "no attackers in range", of which "all attackers killed" is a subset, causing a potential failed assault, whether that is a "stall", that is, attacker automatically loses, a "failed assault", no fight occurs, or an "assault with no attacks", is the issue that's being discussed; the contingency of a defender having the opportunity to "move out of range" is not considered at all in the basic assault rules, so, while the rules are "clear" for basic assaults, they are not clear on this situation, since this situation isn't addressed at all, hence the discussion!

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Actually noone is suggesting that, as a "stalled" assault automatically results in the attacking formation breaking.

We're suggesting the closest applicable situation is what happens when there are no units in range to FF after a charge move. In this case the assault doesn't stall, it just never takes place at all.

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There is a third result for assaults, which is that if no units are in range to FF the assault never takes place. This is the closest match for this situation, the sensible option and the non-rules-lawyer way to resolve it.

As far as I can see everyone agrees on this but you. Yet you claim it's "crystal clear" that you're right? Evidently not.

By the precise wording of the rules you are probably correct, but we'te proving that epic is not a game of rules lawyers by saying that we'd choose to play in the spirit of the rules instead, and make the assault not happen.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

But it doesn't count as stalled. Stalling happens only if attacking units are killed. Rules are very specific on that one. Therefore only way you can arque that it count as stalling is if you claim attacking units are killed when defenders move out of range.

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Agreed, even if the rules *seem* to indicate otherwise... this is an unusual, and, when the rules were written, unconsidered event, *ESPECIALLY* after the Assault rules were re-written!

And the easiest way for the attacker to prevent this result is not to clip!  

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Because stalling only happens when attacking units are KILLED. Therefore if people claim assault stalls when defenders move outside of range either they haven't bothered to read the rules or they claim attackers are somehow killed in the process.

There's only ONE case where attack stalls. When attackers are killed. No other case meets requirement for stalling.

If defenders move out of range then you proceed normally. Assault happened as attackers were within 15cm after charge move and since they weren't killed assault didn't stall. Rules are crystal clear on this one.

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