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Assault question

 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:25 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 03 Aug. 2009, 11:24 )

There we go, noone was killed, noone breaks, and the activation was wasted.

But since none were killed assault did not stall and ergo results would be rolled. Casualties would just be 0.

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 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:28 am 
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In the rulebook, in the panel about 'rules questions' IIRC, it says something like:

"sometimes you will come across situations that the rules do not cover. Resolve them sensibly, as Epic is designed for experienced wargamers, not experienced rules lawyers".


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What is the sensible solution here?

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 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:38 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 03 Aug. 2009, 11:28 )

In the rulebook, in the panel about 'rules questions' IIRC, it says something like:

"sometimes you will come across situations that the rules do not cover. Resolve them sensibly, as Epic is designed for experienced wargamers, not experienced rules lawyers".


---

What is the sensible solution here?

Who says epic is about sensible solutions? It's about rules lawyering your way to victory.

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 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:41 am 
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The rulebook says it.

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 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:42 am 
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Quote: (tneva82 @ 03 Aug. 2009, 11:38 )

Who says epic is about sensible solutions?

The guy who wrote the rules.

It's about rules lawyering your way to victory.

Perhaps in some gaming circles, but that description doesn't feel familiar to me. Even the UK tournaments I've played in have been free of daft rules lawyering. Tweaked/efficient army lists maybe, but not rules lawyering.

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 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:48 am 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 03 Aug. 2009, 11:41 )

The rulebook says it.

Practice>theories of rulebook. If people play it by rules lawyering to victory then that's how it's designed to be played.

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 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:25 pm 
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I would suggest that the assault does not take place rather than stalling, infered from the text about the charge move :-
1.12.3 Make Charge Move
A formation undertaking an engage action is allowed to make one move (not a double distance move as is the case in many sets of wargame rules, not least many Games Workshop games), and then fights an assault against the enemy formation that was chosen as the target of the charge. This move is known as the charge move.

Make the move normally, as described in the movement rules given previously. Once the move is complete, the engaging formation must have at least one unit within 15cms of a unit from the target formation. If this is not the case then the assault does not take place and the action ends. This caveat aside, units from the charging formation may move in any direction and do not have to head towards the enemy.


To "stall", the assault must physically start and result in the death of all attackers. Under the stated conditions the target has 'evaded' out of assault range, avoiding the assault altogether.

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 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:28 pm 
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I agree with Gavin that that is the most sensible way to play it.

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 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:35 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 03 Aug. 2009, 12:25 )

Make the move normally, as described in the movement rules given previously. Once the move is complete, the engaging formation must have at least one unit within 15cms of a unit from the target formation. If this is not the case then the assault does not take place and the action ends. This caveat aside, units from the charging formation may move in any direction and do not have to head towards the enemy.

The thing is, the Attacker actually met this stipulation with thier move, so I would say the attack happens with no attacks/no casualities... and no support fire from the other formation.  Nothing is mentioned about the attack failing after the results of a counter-charge.

To me it seems to represent the approach of the attacking formation "pushing back" the defender... and makes sense to me.  The defender appears to be "caught between a rock and a hard place" and I can see that making them, potentially, break, even without taking casualties... doesn't seem like "rules lawyering" to me at all.




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 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:37 pm 
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Chroma that's too generous as most likely the dice roll would be even (bms vs outnumbering). Tough biscuits to them for not getting close enough or attacking while the enemy was manoeuvring to face a different opponent!

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 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:41 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 03 Aug. 2009, 12:37 )

Chroma that's too generous as most likely the dice roll would be even (bms vs outnumbering). Tough biscuits to them for not getting close enough or attacking while the enemy was manoeuvring to face a different opponent!

I wouldn't say going from the "sure thing" of a clipping assault to a 50/50 chance for win/loss is generous...  :laugh:

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 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:54 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 03 Aug. 2009, 12:25 )

I would suggest that the assault does not take place rather than stalling, infered from the text about the charge move :-
1.12.3 Make Charge Move
A formation undertaking an engage action is allowed to make one move (not a double distance move as is the case in many sets of wargame rules, not least many Games Workshop games), and then fights an assault against the enemy formation that was chosen as the target of the charge. This move is known as the charge move.

Make the move normally, as described in the movement rules given previously. Once the move is complete, the engaging formation must have at least one unit within 15cms of a unit from the target formation. If this is not the case then the assault does not take place and the action ends. This caveat aside, units from the charging formation may move in any direction and do not have to head towards the enemy.


To "stall", the assault must physically start and result in the death of all attackers. Under the stated conditions the target has 'evaded' out of assault range, avoiding the assault altogether.

But that's related only to charge move. Counter charge move isn't part of the charge move...

Attackers move into 15cm range -> assault takes place. Then comes counter charge. Enemy moves outside range. This wasn't attackers being killed so assault didn't stall. Then comes attack rolls. Nothing in range. Then comes resolution.

Nothing in rules say attack stalls when that happens so roll results and go from there.

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 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:56 pm 
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I could equally have gone the other way - Attacker B1 with BMs but Inspiring intended the supports to get lots of kills. Without them (or with extreme resolution dice) the attacker could end up broken.

While I sympathise with the suggestion that the assault has started, there has been no combat from anywhere (in the E:A sense of an 'assault'). I guess we need Neal to comment.




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 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:56 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 03 Aug. 2009, 12:35 )

To me it seems to represent the approach of the attacking formation "pushing back" the defender... and makes sense to me.  The defender appears to be "caught between a rock and a hard place" and I can see that making them, potentially, break, even without taking casualties... doesn't seem like "rules lawyering" to me at all.

Ummm defenders are the ones benefitting here. They don't have to counter charge away so they can sit and fight if they want. Or move out of range if they have sufficient static resolution to get advantage.

Defenders choice whether they move outside FF range or not so they are the ones benefitting here.

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 Post subject: Assault question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:09 pm 
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Quote: (tneva82 @ 03 Aug. 2009, 12:54 )

Quote: (Ginger @ 03 Aug. 2009, 12:25 )


To "stall", the assault must physically start and result in the death of all attackers. Under the stated conditions the target has 'evaded' out of assault range, avoiding the assault altogether.

But that's related only to charge move. Counter charge move isn't part of the charge move...

Attackers move into 15cm range -> assault takes place. Then comes counter charge. Enemy moves outside range. This wasn't attackers being killed so assault didn't stall. Then comes attack rolls. Nothing in range. Then comes resolution.

Nothing in rules say attack stalls when that happens so roll results and go from there.

With respect, what I quoted is a close as you will get for an answer to the described situation. You might equally point out that what is described has not resulted in any killed units, so it also does not conform to the rule definitions either.

Under the revised rules the assault can go three ways
- Defender overrun (no defenders left)
- Attack stalls (all attackers in the assault are killed off, or no attackers left)
- Normal resulution (some attackers and defenders remain)

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