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Discussion of Clipping Assaults

 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:42 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 21 Jul. 2009, 18:39 )

It would make support fire pretty pointless as you could "drag them in" everytime if 15cm was enough. I suppose you could say if you get within 5cm, but that just reduces the safe support area smaller. I'm not sure it would actually help at all.

I'm not suggesting any changes here, I'm just saying this is what people find "odd", and it *is* an oddity with no "real world" basis, it's purely a rule mechanic.

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:47 pm 
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One possible solution would be to essentially make all supporting fire formations a full part of the assault, i.e. they get hits from the assault applied to them and attack at the same time as everyone else.

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:49 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 21 Jul. 2009, 18:47 )

One possible solution would be to essentially make all supporting fire formations a full part of the assault, i.e. they get hits from the assault applied to them and attack at the same time as everyone else.

So "free", and constant, commander on things?  

I think that would radically alter the game.

Perhaps if counter-charging can get the enemy in the unit's zone of control they can get dragged in, but, as Hena said above that just forces a further "safe" distance... and probably leads to more "precision" placement, but it could be interesting and would make assaults more risky.




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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:51 pm 
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WOW, yes please! Then my Eldar formations all get to move every time they engage or support.

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:55 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 21 Jul. 2009, 18:49 )

Quote: (zombocom @ 21 Jul. 2009, 18:47 )

One possible solution would be to essentially make all supporting fire formations a full part of the assault, i.e. they get hits from the assault applied to them and attack at the same time as everyone else.

So "free", and constant, commander on things?  

No, because Commander allows multiple formations to move as a single activation. This wouldn't do that, it'd be the same as now except for the oddity of supporting fire formations being completely immune to damage from the firefight, even if they are actually closer to the enemy formation than the initial engagers.

Obviously I don't expect this to actually become a rule, but it is certainly more of a realistic rule.

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:56 pm 
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Quote: (Mephiston @ 21 Jul. 2009, 18:51 )

WOW, yes please! Then my Eldar formations all get to move every time they engage or support.

Obviously it'd be worded so only the initial engaging formation gets a consolidation move to prevent this.

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:21 pm 
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Yep, Chroma got it. Moving towards the closest enemy makes sense (as the rules are), holstering your rifles and lighting up cigarettes having charged at an enemy who isn't 'in the engaging formation' but is shooting on you is tarded.

Zombocom and others admirable efforts to change the rules to make this situation more realistic fall into the 'heavily complex' and/or 'radically game changing' I warned about.

The 'move towards nearest engaged unit' isn't as realistic as these changes, but it isn't as unrealistic as the current 'run towards enemy, then sit there'.


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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:11 pm 
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Well, here is a question for you...  If you counter-charge toward a supporting formation with (for example) 5 units and 3 of them get into B-t-B contact, do all five units now assault or only the three?  Assuming all five could not countercharge and participate in an assault against the formation that initiated the assault.

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:12 pm 
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Quote: (mnb @ 21 Jul. 2009, 01:25 )

and all you clipping haters, how real is it to have a line of scouts streched half way across the board to deny movement?

Perhaps you're completely missing the point? Sometimes people make suggestions about the game because they want to improve something, not because they can't win games. The fact that I do defend against and use clipping myself in games doesn't mean that I think its a sensible and fair rule. Understand?

This similarly applies to Stompzillia and Chroma's childish insults saying people only complain because they don't have care and foresight to set up their army right, or are just upset over losing a game. Its a rather pointless theory of just insulting people who they disagree with so they can use ad hominem instead of saying something relevant or on topic.

As the respresenting minimal overal damage to a formation; thats what blast markers are for.

Quote: (Moscovian @ 21 Jul. 2009, 18:15 )

Either way he is screwed.  But talking about the realism, what would the Chaos do?  Charge blindly 10cm across open ground toward the Coterie while all the Reavers use them for target practice?  Or would they engage the closest enemy that was shooting at them?  

IMO the latter seems to be the most realistic choice and exactly what the rule calls for.


This is another good point, they should engage the closest enemy... but dispite running at the Reavers which are their nearest agressors to deal with all their bullets seem to fly off at right angles to hit bad guys that are over twice as far away.

They're not actually engaging the closest enemy that was shooting at them, which means they're not doing what you say is the most realistic choice because thats exaclty what the rule calls for.




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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:31 pm 
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Perhaps you're completely missing the point? Sometimes people make suggestions about the game because they want to improve something, not because they can't win games. The fact that I do defend against and use clipping myself in games doesn't mean that I think its a sensible and fair rule. Understand?


Perhaps you personally were not having a whinge because of a few bad results or because you don't know the counters or understand the rules properly but i can garauntee some of the other anti-clippers posted were.  I don't know you or your motives and can only judge based on what is written.  In addition none of my replies were directed directly at you but were in general.

If you're going to continue to post on the internet i would suggest you grow a thicker skin because these mis-understandings are common when communicating purely by text by people who do not know one another.

Personally i have no problem with clipping assaults and have explained quite clearly why this is the case and why i disagree with you.





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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:35 pm 
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Quote: (Hymirl @ 21 Jul. 2009, 21:12 )

This similarly applies to Stompzillia and Chroma's childish insults saying people only complain because they don't have care and foresight to set up their army right, or are just upset over losing a game. Its a rather pointless theory of just insulting people who they disagree with so they can use ad hominem instead of saying something relevant or on topic.

Childish insults?  Not sure where I made such things, Hymirl.

Are you referencing this:

I think it's also that the sting of being hit with a horribly destructive clip (usually with intermingling) is far more memorable than the clips that fail.


I'd say the above statement is definitely true!  I know it from personal experience when I get caught with too much stuff intermingled and the enemy rolls me right up.  That kind of defeat sticks in one's mind... but the many times such an attempt failed do little to register; it's a common "observational bias", nothing insulting about it, just the way people are wired to remember "significant" results.




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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:47 pm 
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and i also did not mean to offend you. but the long scout line (at least in my games) seems to be a target that gets clipped a lot. it's hard not to clip if it's strung out all over the board... and i don't think that's realistic either but allowed in the rules.


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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:59 am 
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They're not actually engaging the closest enemy that was shooting at them, which means they're not doing what you say is the most realistic choice because thats exaclty what the rule calls for.


Hymirl,

Remember the supporting fire in the real world would be simultaneous (and might actually come before the real assault!), so the game mechanic is actually doing what I said it would: charge the closest formation that is plugging them with high velocity rounds. It's not like you would stand around on the sidelines saying, "Hmmm, I wonder if they are going to charge us or our buddies coming up on their flank?  Let's wait it out and see."

As for the counter charge not being able to FF, I suppose you could just say it is a penalty incurred due to the confusion of the moment, but those that make it into b-t-b are exempt.  I know it all sounds so fiddly but as I mentioned on another thread, many of these rules break down under extreme scrutiny.  At the end of the day we just need to accept them as being -not necessarily perfect rules- but instead as the best rules.  Remember, it is a game after all.  Realistically dice don't have any basis in real life but we count on them for mimicking uncertain aspects of battle.

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