So, basically, you don't like the "precision" of clipping assaults, clausewitz?  

Not the concept or anything else?

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Yes, that would be a good way of describing my thoughts Chroma.

you could also make it 7+1d6 cm.... Erm... Morgan raised the suggestion already.

I have no problem with clipping assaults in general... but I can see the argument that the there should be more uncertainty involved in the process of arranging these assaults.

Perhaps another suggestion would be allowing units on Overwatch the option to make limited moves as well.

Clausewitz, if you dig deep enough into Epic you will find unlikeable things like the precision of a clipping assault (as Chroma described it).  At the end of the day Epic is a game and the rules create game mechanics that simulate battle conditions.  Sometimes it does an excellent job, sometimes a not-so-good job, and many times the realism of the mechanic is subject to personal interpretation.

An example I bring up frequently are troops on overwatch getting the cover modifier.  I think it is unrealistic, but Nealhunt thinks it is realistic.  You can look up the volumes written on that particular discussion, but the point is that ultimately somebody is going to be unhappy with the way the rule rolls, as you appear to be with the clipping assaults.  

This may be a horrible answer, but you may have to be satisfied with "Well, it's just a game mechanic."

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No Moscovian, thats not a horrible answer at all

You have given a balanced and non-partisan view (and given the amount of, well, heated debate that preceeded thats rather nice).

You are correct that if you dig enough there will always be things like this.  FYI this didn't come about because I was actively campaigning for a change in the rules, but from a comment TRC made about clipping assaults being one of the ways Epic is realistic, which I disagreed with.  Unfortunately, I didn't make my case very well and much confusion and disagreement followed

But as Chroma describes it the "precision" of *some* clipping assaults irks me as somewhat gamey.

There is an element of truth here. I'm in favour of clipping assaults in general, but you're right that the micromanagement involved can be a little gamey.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I'd guess the issue there is that clipping assaults are decisive, while also being something of an art.  Fire bands are a little less complicated and easier to comprehend.

Interesting question. I have been on the recieving end, and committed clipping assaults myself (with limited success...).

Other's have given examples, but there are plenty of pre-measure situations where you can be a lot more accurate than perhaps 'reality' would allow.
For example, the pilots of 40k are experts in judging the weapon range of enemy AA mounts such that they very rarely fly into range...marvellous.

It is a game mechanic- that's the harsh truth.

There are two extremes of the wargaming spectrum, the Chess and the Random.
Chess games put a lot of emphasis on your decisions, your actions, your choices, your moves. Epic is like this, you have complete control over exactly where your models move and what's in range.

Random games put a lot more emphasis on rolling dice and hoping the dice gods like you, they will include a lot of random dice rolls ("Roll 2d6 to do this", "Scatter D6 here", etc) in the place of decisions. 40k is like this.

I hear a lot of suggestions that want to push Epic towards the 'Random' end, and whilst everyone has there opinion, mine is I like Epic as 'Chess', it is my fault if I let my opponent Clip me, or Intermingle assault, etc, I had access to exactly the same measurements as him, and full knowledge of his army list, etc.

i too am not opposed to the clipping assaults.
that being said i was just having this discussion w/ a friend of mine who hates them (did i mention i play necrons against him) and he brought up a good suggestion. if only one unit (from the defending formation) is in the clipping assault you could counter charge in the opposite direction.
i'm not saying i'm a fan of it, but if you gave a stiff penalty like the formation automatically breaks, it might not be too bad.

And thats the point, its a mechanic being used for something its not supposed to do. Meaning that its not working correctly and needs to be fixed.

The rulebook states "An assault represents a situation where all hell breaks loose as troops desperatly try to sieze a vital objective, or fight a tenacious defense...." which to me means exactly what it says on the tin, an assault ought to be commited action. When its a-ok for that to be replaced with shoot a couple of guys and shout 'ooga booga booga!' really loud until they defenders run off like a bunch of scared cats its clear that you're not doing what its wanting you to do.

Basically, clipping is indefensible as anything other than abuse of the rule, the problem is that its ingrained as acceptable in popular gaming which means it won't go anywhere. This is why there are so many replies where people praise themselves for being 'clever' by exploiting this loophole.

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i think this view might be a little harsh. i picture it more as all your friends rushing past you screaming that they area being over run. you don't see the size of opposing force and just make a run for it.
i hope that's not too confusing. basically it was overwhelming odds for the poor sucker on the end getting clipped and the rest of the formation taking there word for it and running.
and all you clipping haters, how real is it to have a line of scouts streched half way across the board to deny movement?

Or have the care and foresight to set up your troops so that they cannot be clipped.

TBH i share MNB's view.  Battlefields are noisy, smokey confusing places and seeing your mates rush past screaming, wounded and paniced sweeping you along in the rush is entirely plausible.  History is replete with examples of just this sort of thing happening.

Also, in my experience it's not always a good idea to clip big units.  If the unit outnumbers you 2-1 and you only kill 1 unit then you're going into the roll off at +1 (Assuming the attacker is at +2 for blast markers).  Those are not really good odds to me.  i think some people are making a much bigger deal out of it than it really is.

I think it's also that the sting of being hit with a horribly destructive clip (usually with intermingling) is far more memorable than the clips that fail.

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Perhaps you might consider the citations for two posthumous VCs from the Falklands war, in both of which the morale of significant enemy formations was apparently completely undermined by the furious assaults of a handfull of determined soldiers. The point here being the defenders gave up rather than risk being killed.

To be successfull, a Clipping assault needs to use very similar elements: the enemy must be under fire (BMs), must sustain casulaties, and be assaulted by an 'inspiring' leader. The assault resolution may then result in a significant number of troops running away for reasons of self-preservation because they perceive that the assault is being lost.

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