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Discussion of Clipping Assaults
clausewitz
 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:05 pm 
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In the sense that, at least in a "CC brawl" you can "fight back", seeing your neighbors hammered down by meltaguns and grenades and plasma bolts (all the FF weapons lumped together), I think they'd both be equally "disrupting" to morale.


Remember we are talking about a clipping assault, where the majority of the defending formation are NOT coming under any fire at all.  Which is why the quantity of disruption would seem more in line with shooting attacks.

No, I don't think you're completely off base, but there are lots of things that can happen during combat that are disruptive, like an intense artillery barrage or being repeatedly fired upon.

Yes, and Epic accomadates most of these effects through the BM system for shooting (extra BMs for crossfires, large barrages, coming under repeated fire etc etc).

Alvin York was a sniper in WW1 who managed to flank a german position, and along with his 7 squad members caused 132 germans to surrender, and marched them back to the American lines.

A small squad firing accurate small arms weaponry can indeed capture/break a much larger one if they flank and "clip".

Ok overlooking the fact that this is anecdotal evidense.

I wonder how long Alvin and his squad were shooting at theose Germans?  Was it over quickly enough that we would consider it an assault (which in Epic implies the attackers have left their cover..)?  Or was it the accumulated effect of their fire over time that caused that effect (which in Epic terms would be handled by BMs from shooting)?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:06 pm 
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I wonder how long Alvin and his squad were shooting at theose Germans?  Was it over quickly enough that we would consider it an assault (which in Epic implies the attackers have left their cover..)?  Or was it the accumulated effect of their fire over time that caused that effect (which in Epic terms would be handled by BMs from shooting)?


Well it was small arms fire with rifles, so the Epic equivilent is an assault.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:11 pm 
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Quote: (clausewitz @ 16 Jul. 2009, 21:05 )

Ok overlooking the fact that this is anecdotal evidense.

I wonder how long Alvin and his squad were shooting at theose Germans?  Was it over quickly enough that we would consider it an assault (which in Epic implies the attackers have left their cover..)?  Or was it the accumulated effect of their fire over time that caused that effect (which in Epic terms would be handled by BMs from shooting)?


It was a short and furious firefight. He managed his reach the end of the german trench behind a machine gun entrenchment, and engaged in a short ranged firefight, where he killed around 9 germans personally, and around 25 overall were killed, all the while taking return small arms fire. It was such a short fight that the germans only realised they were fighting such a small number of men after they'd surrendered. That's an engagement equivilent.

At the same time the german machine guns had the rest of his platoon pinned down with salvos of fire. That's a shooting/BM equivilent.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:13 pm 
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So the German infantry company with attached fire support squads (machine guns) sustained fire at the infantry company... in response Alvin clipped them and broke the entire 130 men with his two infantry units.

win. :))

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:14 pm 
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[Edit: lol responses coming in so fast what I said didn't makes sense in respect to the new posts]
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:16 pm 
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Just because its small arms that makes it an assault?


Yes, because small arms like rifles can literally only be used in an assault in Epic.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:16 pm 
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Quote: (clausewitz @ 16 Jul. 2009, 21:14 )

Really?

Just because its small arms that makes it an assault?

Surely the way the weapons were used and the tacitcs employed by the men involved should dictate that.

It was most definately an assualt. Alvin's squad were ordered to assault and capture the machine guns, which they did by "clipping" one end of the german lines and being able to kill enough to demoralise and break the rest.

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:20 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 16 Jul. 2009, 21:16 )

Just because its small arms that makes it an assault?


Yes, because small arms like rifles can literally only be used in an assault in Epic.

Which would imply that all sniper rifles are assault weapons, since they too are small arms.

Clearly they are not.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:23 pm 
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However, there is a difference between a rifle and a sniper rifle

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:24 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 16 Jul. 2009, 21:16 )

Quote: (clausewitz @ 16 Jul. 2009, 21:14 )

Really?

Just because its small arms that makes it an assault?

Surely the way the weapons were used and the tacitcs employed by the men involved should dictate that.

It was most definately an assualt. Alvin's squad were ordered to assault and capture the machine guns, which they did by "clipping" one end of the german lines and being able to kill enough to demoralise and break the rest.

I still wonder if this is actually an example of clipping.

It sounds as though Alvin and his squad were threatening all of the German position, not just part of it.

It is a very good example of a small number of troops defeating a larger via small arms.  And I have not disputed that this is possible.  My argument is when the larger number of troops is defeated while only a fraction of them are in any real danger.
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zombocom
 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:28 pm 
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Quote: (clausewitz @ 16 Jul. 2009, 21:24 )

I still wonder if this is actually an example of clipping.

It sounds as though Alvin and his squad were threatening all of the German position, not just part of it.

It is a very good example of a small number of troops defeating a larger via small arms.  And I have not disputed that this is possible.  My argument is when the larger number of troops is defeated while only a fraction of them are in any real danger.

Around 30 germans were directly involved in the firefight, the other 130ish were not, yet still surrendered.




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:29 pm 
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Sgt. York apparently also perfected the means of coaxing German heads to pop up out of the trenches with a turkey call. :))

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:29 pm 
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Quote: (clausewitz @ 16 Jul. 2009, 21:20 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 16 Jul. 2009, 21:16 )

Just because its small arms that makes it an assault?


Yes, because small arms like rifles can literally only be used in an assault in Epic.

Which would imply that all sniper rifles are assault weapons, since they too are small arms.

Clearly they are not.

Sniper Rifles have considerably longer ranges than standard or assault rifles in real life, as well as in warhammer 40,000.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:35 pm 
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Umm ever hear of the battle of Balaclava? In essence a series of cavalry attacks and counter attacks over the ridgeline running in front of the allied position culminated in the famous charge of the Light Brigade. What many fail to realise is that this effectively ended up charging into the flank of the advancing Russian army. The disruption it caused stopped the entire Russian army in it's tracks and consequently ended the battle. Is that a big enough example?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:41 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 16 Jul. 2009, 21:35 )

Umm ever hear of the battle of Balaclava? In essence a series of cavalry attacks and counter attacks over the ridgeline running in front of the allied position culminated in the famous charge of the Light Brigade. What many fail to realise is that this effectively ended up charging into the flank of the advancing Russian army. The disruption it caused stopped the entire Russian army in it's tracks and consequently ended the battle. Is that a big enough example?

Interesting that it's so often held up as an example of an unmitigated failure then!

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