i do believe you agree with me really

I don't have time to play Epic any more ... I just paint the models, and organize most of them in units based on SM1 TO&Es ...      And as I said, I not only collect G/W 6mm, but DRM, E/W, GZG, etc. ...        Some of my 6mm stuff that is too small to paint and don't have enough detail ...               These guys are 3-4mm ...              

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6mm is definitely better for Epic than 10mm or 15mm. Epic is all about maneouvre warfare, and maneouvring requires room, which is why a 6'x4' board is a minimum size tabletop, to my way of thinking.

I think the problem Epic faces in finding a significant market, above and beyond the "once bitten, twice shy" attitude GW exhibits, is it's complexity--which, ironically, is the very thing that makes it so awesome.

Epic is conceptually more complex than 40K due to it's higher level of abstraction. In my experience, young kids (under 15) who play 40K tend not to get Epic, as evidenced by the "Why do Devastators only carry missile launchers?" question I keep getting.

I think it would be in GW's interests to treat 40K as a "gateway drug", and seek to retain aging 40K players (the 20- and 30-somethings) tired of 40K's limitations by transitioning them into its real wargame system, Epic.

If I was running GW, that would be my strategy: a player bored with 40K (as I eventually became) all too easily leaves the fold entirely, and then ceases to be a source of revenue for GW; whereas a player bored of 40K who is then introduced to the larger world of Epic is a potential on-going source of revenue, and one that was cheaply won (in marketing budget terms).

Just my 2 cents, as ever.  

easy there with the ageing comments I may be looking at the summit but I'm not over the hill yet!

i would have to agree entirely with GROOV3R about the abstraction and tactics - this is after all why I can have a very enjoyable game of Vassal without a miniature in site (don't get me wrong, I love the mini's, they're just not the main pull).

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I personally love the 6mm scale - both for vehicles and infantry.
The only problem I have with Epic's infantry is the presentation.
A 5 man unit equally spaced out on a square or thin strip base looks a bit rubbish. I'd prefer Warmaster style 40 x 20 bases with several models and a bit of scenery.

That'd give the game the needed visual lift.

And I think the tanks etc are perfect as they are - a couple of LR companies supported by artillery look awesome on the tabletop.

Regards,
Reaver

PS Some more 6mm infantry - Vikings! You can have reasonable detail at this size.

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Isn't the new space hulk supposed to be 15mm?

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Oh yes, game publicity should feature multiple infnatry on a warmaster sized base, butt he boxes come with strips for the convience of less keen gamers (or both).

Saying that I wish my salamander terminators were on smaller bases, the big bases look great but are a bugger to manouver close in sometimes (and use titans to block LOS etc).


Yes. At that point you realise why 1st edition was as detailed as it was!


You are kidding? Seriously? This is GW's big plan to stop cheap 40k terminators or something?

Come on, no miniture board game is 15mm, its just too small. I've seen 20mm and thats pushing it. May as well play 6mm magnatic space hulk!

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Ha, if they did Space hulk in 6mm, they could slowly release expansion nids (in metal) and support two games at once. The tile sections should be made out of rubber magnetized sheets with terminators (already tooled) and genestealers supplied with little coloured metal bases to stick to the tiles. This would then allow for clear plastic support structures to be built to allow multi-level games. also would allow more games per table in shops.

Of course this won't happen, but its nice to fantise every-so-often.

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Astonishing, I too find it very hard to believe.

From a marketing point of view, Space Hulk must surely be a great gateway game to 40k.
Years ago my kid brother bought Space Hulk. He now has two large space marine armies and a large Nid army (as well as eldar and some guard).

I have no idea, but I suspect that was quite a common thing to happen back in the day...

BTW. My brother doesn't play 40k any more (can't be arsed with it) He just loves to collect and paint citadels amazing models.

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So, in summary we all like the period and the abstracted army level game, and we do not really want to change the game much as it provides an acceptable representation of the period.

We bemoan the lack of marketing and general support which we cannot really fix. Nor can we resolve the issues around IP ownership which seems to provide a significant brake.

6mm scale is Ok for some, but others (typically modelers) would prefer a slightly larger scale somewhere around the 10mm level on average. As an aside on scale, we actually use a varying scale that diminishes with larger objects. I do not believe that titans and WE are actually modeled at 6mm, and I am not even sure that all AV are 'true-scale' either, while infantry are often slightly oversize. But scale does not matter much except when you are trying to make something look right - eg TRC and his terminators, or Reaver using larger bases to add some scenery.

Given the state of things right now, IMHO what we actually need is a set of links to the relevant manufacturers (together with a suggested 'proxy' list), so that newer members of the community can get hold of acceptable models to play the game.

Could we add these links and a proxy list into the forum somewhere?

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I do think you can make good sci-fi battle games with 28mm. 6mm has got to be the easiest scale to do it in, which means with 28mm you have to work much harder.

Manoeuvre is a priority in any wargame. Epic has it in spades. You don't want to just line up in front of each other and roll dice.

To my mind A good 28mm sci-fi/moderns wargame, would deal with just a few squads. Highly detailed squad tactics. No weapons range restrictions (except for personal weapons such as pistols, hand flamers, grenades) since by and large weapons ranges make no sense at this scale. No Macro weapons (no earthshaker cannons, volcano cannons) except as off table support. An insistence of loads and loads of terrain - sensible cover rules.

I'm thinking, building by building, block by block stuff here.

There is not a hope in hell that GW would make such a game!

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When I'm rich Biggles I'll buy everything from all these manufactures and have a comparison website!

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... =7;t=13635

Oh some 10mm info
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....y275376

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Thanks TRC - could we put these details and links on a separate page please (or even a thread of its own )

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I've just updated the master 6mm list.

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

That was kinda my concept for my 15mm 40k ruleset.

Manuever was really important, as was command & control, and it was purely focused on infantry, light vehicles and tanks (no full sized artillery pieces, no aircraft, no titans, etc.). It was quite a different game to Epic and didn't try to level in the big stuff awkwardly like 40k does.

I'll probably get back to it at some point.

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