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Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:45 pm 
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Really no idea on drop pods. Its a bit all in one basket as I rely more on bm's everywhere and dropped troops supporting my air assaults. Has anyone tried two big formations dropped and nothing else?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:54 pm 
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The 'scouts in drop pods' exploit was only a problem because they were ultra-cheap and you could therefore drop a lot of them too cheaply it wasn't their combat power but the multiple Deathwind attacks that were the problem (the Chaos Black Legion has a similar issue with Forlorn Hope formations?).

If they're allowed in 40k, then leave them in.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:53 pm 
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I assume our load out is identical: Terminators+Crusaders with 2 THT


Just consider for a minute what you're getting there Hena.

Not only are you getting 4 Terminator units on the ground for the same 200pts as a Thunderhawk Gunship would cost you, you're also getting the following for no extra points:


- Semi-immunity to critical hits (A critically-hit THT formation will still be able to finish the prospective engagement with the second transporter as the formation doesn't even break).

- DC 4 instead of DC2.

- Double the Firefight power.

- Dropping two RA 4+ superb Firefight vehicles along with the infantry.



The reduction in armour to 5+RA doesn't compensate for the large power boost over a regular Thunderhawk Gunship afforded by the above factors.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:07 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 11 Jun. 2009, 17:58 )

As I suggested we could and probably should go back FF5+. That will make FF a bit better still but not much (1.33 hits vs 1 hit).
The armour drop counters the first point quite effectively. As now you you need ~4hits to drop one instead of 8.
Then there is the craft size. THT is ~4 times larger than Thunderhawk. I'm looking SG Thawk here and don't care about the size of FW Thunderhawk as SG is official model for epic. Then you need the space twice. That means that target area must be large and THTs will take any formations support fire on them from huge area.

None of whih comes near to compensating for the power boost a pair of Thunderhawk Transporters give over a regular Thunderhawk.

I've played against 200pt THT pairs dozens of times and Pulsar's played with them regularly for a year or so, and we're telling you they're too cheap.

Heck look at EpicUK's Thunderhawk Transporter... they charge 300pts for a pair of transporters, and their Firefight stat is 6+... doesn't that tell you that maybe most of the people who's been using these things thinks that they're too good to cost 200pts?




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Steve54
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:58 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 11 Jun. 2009, 14:09 )

Quote: (GlynG @ 11 Jun. 2009, 13:06 )

Wandering OT now but that's not exactly inspiring my confidence in Epic-UK if they haven't fixed them since, it just highlights problems with completely closed playtesting and not allowing the wider community to look over them prior to being officially released.

Their approach to the game / development ethos has certainly put some of my friends off attending their tournaments, but they're clearly not going to be conducting open development in the same manner as Jervis developed Epic's rulebooks / the NetERC operates / the FrenchERC operates...

I'm looking forwards to the Bristol Tournament, as it'll be a less 'EpicUK-ish' so I reckon I can convince some of the guys to attend who wouldn't go near an EpicUK event.


=====

The above is not a slight on the guys who're working on the EpicUK projects, they are of course doing their best for their community.

I wonder if that is more people than have been put off from participating in list development by the constant pushing of opinions (as facts) as dismissal of all opposition by the 'London Armylist Committee'.

The above is not a slight on the guys who're working on the projects, they are of course doing their best for their viewpoint

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:32 pm 
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Eh, there was an awesome post here about grokking the perspectives of others, but I deleted it because it sounded like I was being both aggressive and overly-defensive.

I guess I'm just a crap communicator.  :sad:

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:49 pm 
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Hena I suggest mounting them on flying bases and not taking them off. then you have to accommodate two titan sizes areas which is easy enough.

As for 200 vs 200. Take the EpicUK stats and compare to a regular brick.
Both loaded for ease of comparison with 2 devs (leaving crusaders etc out).
Regular - FF - 2x4+, 8x3+, unit count 10, 1/24 chance of crit from each hit, can take two points of damage (RA4+)
THT - FF - 8x6+, 8x3+, unit count 14 and mobile afterwards, 2/27 chance of crit from each hit, can take 2 damage each and will typically 'spread' it over the formation thanks to the WE targeting rules.

I think in near every situation if something can take Rhinos I would want it to have rhinos for that drop, with the slight increase in fragility compensated by numbers and firepower.

Incidentally is the 3 strong formation needed? Does it not duplicate the Landing Craft?


Can I be on the London rules committee? Maybe for the Indian sub continental branch? :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:06 pm 
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Can I be on the London rules committee? Maybe for the Indian sub continental branch? :)


I'd like to know where they meet, and if they have a secret handshake?

will typically 'spread' it over the formation thanks to the WE targeting rules.

Note that Pulsar has adopted the EpicUK 'all damage goes on one THT until it dies, only then does damage go onto the second' special rule for the Thunderhawk Transporter, meaning that you can't spread hits back and forth in a gamey manner.




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Pulsar
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:30 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 11 Jun. 2009, 21:06 )

will typically 'spread' it over the formation thanks to the WE targeting rules.


Note that Pulsar has adopted the EpicUK 'all damage goes on one THT until it dies, only then does damage go onto the second' special rule for the Thunderhawk Transporter, meaning that you can't spread hits back and forth in a gamey manner.

i don't remember but i think they used my THT damage rules, but it doesn't matter as long as everyone agree's it works

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5 proposed changes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:51 pm 
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Ah you came up with it did you?

Alls I know is both use a pretty sensible special rule.  :agree:

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