Well they'd be making up their own background, as Imperial Guard commissars have no authority over the  Adeptus Mechanicus Titan Legions in the Warhammer 40,000 background.

You repeatedly 'laugh' or call friendly gamer's opinions 'funny'. I'd advise you to stop, it's not appropriate.

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It's okay, I've won more than I've lost at the three tournaments I've attended I think.

I would hesitate to put that entirely down to my skill!  

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Hhmmm as I seem to be used as an example for strong/broken/min-maxed/hoard (delete as appropriate) lists in the uk tournament scene I suppose that I should chime in and add my point of view.

As I’ve stated on other threads over the years I am a powergamer, I want to win and I’ll do my best to beat those that I face. I’ve been playing EpicA ever since the initial rules were released for testing. I went to the pre-release tournament in Nottingham where Mekboy won with his Marine & Warlord army.

Now some of my tournament ready armies are over 4 years old and whilst they were conquering all before them in their day they have be come more par of the course – Ben there is a lot of similarity between your guard and mine – I believe that I was the first in the uk tournament scene to show that you didn’t need tank companies to win tournaments.

So I’m the nasty one.

I also like to try things out, 900pts of Nightwings, Deathwheels & Ferals, Mounted Cultists with Tzeench air support, Uge mobz of Speed Freaks, Orkeosaurus, Nids.

The powergamer in me would love to be able to say that I sweep all before me. I don’t. Yes every so often I have a game which goes just the way it was planned or my opponent can’t activate/shoot/save for love nor money, but most of the time I end up having to fight for every single goal.

What I have found is that if you wish to play an extreme list then you have to sacrifice something to achieve it. Take my War Engine of doom BL list that I took to Open War. This started out as an experiment on Assault Companies and Ferals after it was commented on Taccoms that this was an over powered combination. The list then progressed as a force which wanted to eliminate as many AP shots as possible. If you can’t hit me, you can’t kill me idea. Knowing just how badly things can go with out a supreme commander in tournaments I added in a Raptor formation to watch over my armoured assault. However the list had some serious flaws, no AA or aircraft and only nine activations all bar my BTS vulnerable to blast markers. Plus if facing a Guard army with shadowswords, deathstrikes and vultures then I really do worry about just how long my army would last.

My final thought for the moment is that my opponents do seem to get a lot of satisfaction on the odd occasion that they render me helpless to prevent them from winning.

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And there's nothing wrong with that as long as everyone knows what to expect, but it is 20% more WAAC than 'friendly' gamers are used to.

So yes, WAAC does happen in EpicUK tournaments, to an extent.

Nothing like as much as in Warhammer Fantasy / Warhammer 40,000, where you can often WAAC/Powergame your way to the top without needing any skill, but it's there and it does turn some people off (Not me though).

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I'm going to go back to Ginger's original questions.

So what are your thoughts on WAAC and tournaments in general.

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As a person once said "There's lies, damn lies and statistics."  

Funnily enough I'm considered a 'friendly' gamer at my local club.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Wow - this seems to have touched some raw nerves!

I really do not want to close the discussion but I will have if we cannot keep it objective and on Topic.
Lets try to calm down a little and steer the topic back on course as there are some really good points here.

Also, CS (or someone with appropriate powers) could we move this thread to a more suitable home:- "Epic Armageddon" or "Strategy & Tactics".

I started the thread to remove an off-topic discussion in another tournament thread. However people still seem to have missed the point of this thread / discussion. WAAC should not equated with tournaments per se - it can happen anywhere at any time between any two people. However by their nature, tournaments are a competitive environment that tend to bring out these kind of tendencies.

Please can we carry on discussing :-
- How does WAAC occur in E:A (if at all)?
- If present, how does WAAC manifest itself?
- What (if anything) needs to be done to counter WAAC in E:A?

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Benjamin Disraeli I think.

EDIT: Wikipeida says yes.
Funnily enough I'm considered a 'friendly' gamer at my local club.

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WAAC is Win at all Costs.

One of those costs is being sporting.
No one who has ever been to an Epic tourny, and who is sane, can ever say that they have a strong flavour of bad sportsmanship, not even a mild flavour. Especially if they have played Tim or others of his ilk.

One can be a 'power gamer' and a total gent at the same time. These things are not incompatible.

What else is left? List abuses (a highly dubious concept in epic anyway)? He do mediate for this? With the sportsmanship scores. How can we legislate against this? By fixing the lists. What else is there that can be done?

I think, on reflection, that all would agree that Epic competitions are amongst the finest you could possibly find. If you don't like Epic competitions then you don't like competitions full stop. If one falls into this category then competition threads such as this are of no interest to you!

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It might be better to re-lable the thread 'Epic and Powergaming', as WAAC seems to be a diffuse term.

Non-tournament gamers seem to associate the term 'WAAC' with 'Powergaming' (Thanks Tim for raising this term!)?

Some tournament gamers seem to associate the term 'WAAC' with outright cheating?


EDIT: Looks like Rug and I agree!

Sorry for the subtext talk, I like to think of myself as somewhat of a writer, although I may in fact be a poor one.  




Agreed.

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Powergaming is surely just trying to play as well as possible.
Nothing is sacrificed with Powergaming; there's no 'cost'

If you can't face a power gamer then either:

You don't like the game - the rules need changing,
or
your opponent is a bad sportsman/cheating.

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The cost is the cooperative atmosphere, which becomes more adversarial.

No more sharing tactical thoughts, no more charging a lone Ork boyz unit at a Titan because it makes a good story*, no more 'fluffy' army compositions.

That's the cost, and to some it's too high a price to pay.


*Instead it triples to claim an objective or something, because a Powergamer 'only plays to win'.

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right i've been attending tournaments for just over a year in my first game i was dispatched swiftly by joe who also helped me with rules and my bad tactics in that game. but that is just one game i like to think about.

i love the uk tournament games and my  favourite opponent sofar is tim a top player who i have enjoyed some hard games that end in headaches and hand shakes and yes we want to win but does it matter in the end no their just good close games(for me anyway)

i must add that i use black legion regular so does this make me a win at all cost player i don't think so

i don't bend rules to fit i don't try and gab a couple of extra cm when i move formations

in one game at openwar an opponent forgot to rally a formation in the end phase if i was WAAC player it would have been tough luck but hey its only a game so i let them try to rally the formation it promptly failed and remained broken  

i have also played many other players and hope i have been  as fair and fun to play against for them as they have for me

if people looking to find fault in uk tournaments your looking in the wrong place

they are fun friendly places in which i think i have found many new friends

sorry i type slow and the subjects may have moved along

see you all at the next one

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Intruiging and with a touch of Feudal / Samuari / Norse saga to it:-

'The last of the Ronin, now that their duty to their dead lord was fulfilled, bowed to their opponents and committed sepuku, as in completing their mission they had violated the code they lived by'.

But you are correct that this is unlikely to occur on a tournament table because telling the saga is not really one of the tournament objectives. So, is it sensible / practical to include something like this in tournaments? After all we already have points for painting and sportsmanship, which are deliberately intended to reduce the impact of WAAC in the tournament

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