Fellows, I know I can be a royal... But I do like this game and what I want is to make it flow more easy and get an over all higher grade of accessibility.
I have a very strong feeling that quite a lot of various troubles in the rules lies within the space and time continuum called activations. So please bear with me now as I move into this area.
And on this with obnoxious, I've had a depp-dip recently, please try to disregard when I'm more undiscussable than usual...

I feel this is a stair. First the basic perimeters for an activation must be set. What can you do, what is there no time for. What really is an activation?

My view here is that an activation is a set period of time. Within this each formation gets to act a specific amount. Looking at how it usually is this amount is two things. For example "move and shoot", "aim and shoot" and "move and move", the three big activations.

There's several instances where this is broken. Where you have a formation getting several activations worth. And my view here is that this lead us to have a plethora of "special rules" and that is leading to inconsistent rules.

But I would like to spare exact instances for a moment and check two things with you folks...

1) Would it be beneficial to clean up some of this?
2) Would people be willing to help discuss it with me here?
(And I'll do my very best, with some help, to stay on target and focused and generous...)

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

I don't really see any problem with the range of activations. They neatly represent an abstraction of the sort of things possible in a 15 minute period.

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Looks like search for a solution in search of a problem (how postmodern!) to me. But by all means go on you feel like it, there could be some interesting ideas here.

I'll play.



ok. The three big activations - move and shoot, aim and shoot, move and move.

Two disticnt elements to each.

Current EA rules give you three slots within each activation:

March: make three moves
Advance: move, aim shoot
Double: move, move shoot
Engage: move, assault, assault
Marshal: Move/shoot, gather, reorganise
Overwatch - ok you got me  
Sustained Fire: Aim, Aim, shoot


so is this the source of your issue? your aiming for a two slot activation when the rest are set to three?

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My shifting projects

Overwatch - aim aim aim?

Can you give an example of the 'plethora of special rules' needed to use Epic activations?

I've found the Epic Armageddon ruleset to be very simple, yet capable of very tactical/complex games.

Most actions are 3 'things' as already stated.

Do you mean the Eldar ability to get 3 activations before you can react? Special rule spam is their thing, irritating but necessary.

Do you mean that some activations allow you to do more than others?

I've found them adequate and with downsides.

Take Advance and Double. Double let's you move twice as far...but the shooting after it is pants.

In short,

1) Clean up what?
2) Sure, as soon as I know what we're discussing.

Good to hear you folks are willing to discuss this. And yes, I see it as a trouble. Why? Because it creates "funny" situation leading to even "funnier" FAQ's and from there to very strange new things.
Yes, I know, I didn't list all the various "things". I hope to step over that and make them all obsolete by having the underlying problem ordered.

Can we agree on the individual "turn" (the formation's activation), that it is as long as it is for every activation? A nominal 15 minutes.

If we then look at the various activations and break them up, how does it look?
(I'm using only the basic rulebook Epic Armageddon now. No errata.)

Advance- Move (and Disembark) and Shoot - (2½)
Engage- Move (and Disembark) and Assault¹ and Consolidate - (3)
Double- (Embark and) Move, Move (and Disembark) and Shoot(-1) - (4)
March- (Embark and) Move and Move and Move (and Disembark) - (4)
Marshal- Move or Shoot(-1) and Regroup - (2)
Overwatch² - Wait on Move and Fire - (2)
Sustained Fire - Aim or Prepare³ and Fire(+1) - (2)
Hold- miss Activation or Out of Formation and Move or Fire - (2)
Special Action - not part of this, but my belief is that many will be unnecessary special rules if the above gets more "in accordance with real life time and space continuum".

¹As many rounds of assaults as are necessary to end that fight.
²Free automatic pre-turn activation if on unused Overwatch previous turn.
³To use the skill Indirect Fire you must Aim first.

As can be seen the main culprit seem to be Dis/Embark.
Almost universally this is considered about half a move.
In EA it's a non-existing entity in Time. It's even a Time accelerating action if looking at Double and March. The faster you go, the more effective does troopers get in and out of vehicles.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Erik,

Counting the shooting phases on Sustained Fire (+1), Advance and Double (-1) as 1 each is extremely silly. When a formation performs an action, we're not concerned with a physical process. Instead, we are looking at a group of people working together. Granted, there is a physical component. A lot can happen in fifteen seconds, but not much happens every fifteen seconds. The old saw about the military has it right:  almost everything is composed of two things -- hurry up and wait.

What time you got for shooting is what's left after you've moved around.
* Sit tight and get time to aim properly, ie +1.
* Move forward slow but steady, the nominal shooting action, ie ±0.
* Run and sling of a shoot from your hip, ie -1.

What I am advocating is that there should be no shooting in Double and either no March at all, or several disadvantages with it (like no difficult terrain, no objective taking/contest, +1 to shoot at). Following this is that +1 stays on Sustained if it's not necessary (as in Prepare above).

A further change is Dis/Embarking at one per turn, not the present one per (sub)Move. Apart from that it can remain as is, as the Transported unit may not move at all in that turn (apart from the 5cm(/15cm)).
But being able to get on and get of if travelling at 90mph while only being able to do one of them while travelling in 45mph, that is... was it "extremely silly"?

The usually put forward analogue about "hurry up and wait" can't be applied at a single turn. Or actually not at all. The rules for having such "Fog of War" elements would slow the game down dramatically. It can even be questioned if it would give pleasurable games.
The only FoW in EA right now is the roll for activation. (I would like to have it on when a unit breaks too, but let's leave that for now, shall we?)

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Ok, what I am mostly oppose to is this Embark and then Disembark business on Double.

I can see double move (not double Move), with Shooting -1. But I can not see getting either on or off a vehicle (Transport) moving at break neck speed.

Not allowing that would also mean Double is a decision, not today's no-brainer.
And following that we would see a more tactical game.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Uh, the reason you're travelling 90mph on double is that you're spending 10 minutes out of given 15 driving at 135mph (or whatever the hell), as opposed to 5 minutes at 135mph on Advance.

I'm not entirely sure where you got the idea that vehicles are literally driving thrice as fast on March action. I suggest that you let it go.

I see it the same way as Hena.

Advance = 5mins move, 10 mins shooting etc

Because Double and March spend more time moving, they have more time to (dis)embark, so can do it more often. It makes perfect sense.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Because vytzka, they get double or trice as far in the same given time.
If I want to get to Stockholm in the same time as to Orebro I'd have to travel twice as fast, right? (About twice as far to Stockholm.) And twice as fast all the time.

In each and every activation you spend as much time as you can find to get the action done. There's no slack time.
If there had been any slack time, then you could've gotten even further, or aimed somewhat better, or whatever better/more.
But there's no time to spare, because while you're doing your action the clock is ticking and your enemies are also moving.

But looking back on all this I realise I've made an error.
"Unfortunately" it proves my point even better...

"It takes me fifteen minutes to get to that crossroad. And you wanted me to do WHAT at the same time? What do you think this Chimera is powered with?! A Rolls-Royce, or what? There's no way I can load those blasted ogryn and get them there in fifteen. In thirty maybe, if that commissar is as good as he claims. Maybe."

The error I made was to think of it as twice as fast. It gets twice as long because it spends twice as much on the road. But all the time it's open throttle.
And there you got the reason there must be a draw back to March, because there you throw every bit of caution out the view slit and step on it.

_________________
It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641