On the 2008 FAQ the blue print text is the new interpretation and the one in black print text should have been removed (but it is GW).

That's what I figured, but still, it wasn't removed.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

. . . . . And the point about the FAQ is that it does not differentiate between starting a single move, and starting multiple moves.

One of the debates on SG 'years ago' referred to skimmers being set up in dangerous terrain, and the fact that some people did not test to leave the terrain in the first instance, merely testing if they sunsequently landed in dangerous terrain. (I think there was some thought about being carefully set up or something). This was eventually corrected after some carefull thought during which the 'multiple move' action was considered (IMHO it would seem plausible for a skimmer to make a double out of dangerous terrain by first moving cautiously (5cm) and then making a normal move clear of the terrain.)

But the important point here is that neither the rules nor the FAQ state that the skimmer *must* land after every move, this is just an assumption currently being made in this discussion.

IMHO the quintessential difference is that being 'popped-up' means one take-off and one landing irrespective of the number of moves, while being 'popped-down' means multiple take-offs and landings if the skimmer makes multiple moves. But hey, you knew that already didn't you

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

The rulebook states they ignore terrain as they move, not at the end of moves, and the FAQ reinforces that.

Again, I certainly agree that your interpretation makes a lot more sense logically, but it's just not what the rules say.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Actually I agree that the FAQ and the rule states the requirement of a test when the Skimmer lands, it just does not mandate landing after every move!

However 'popped-up' defines the skimmer as flying high above terrain for the duration of the action, ie multiple moves. Consequently in default of any definition to the contrary, I suggest the rules infer that the skimmer does not in fact land until the end of the last move.

But you also knew that too, didn't you

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Okay, here's where you're wrong, Ginger

The second paragraph is its own, distinct rule; it has nothing to do with popping up or anything in any subsequent paragraphs.  Just like the last paragraph is its own distinct rule.

Have you noticed that there's *nothing* about movement, other than it counting as an overwatch trigger, in the section detailing "popping-up"?  It only explains about transports and line of fire... that's it.

You are making a logical assumption that is not actually warranted by the text, simple as that.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

And you are making an erroneous but 'logical' assumption that a skimmer *must* land after every move. This is not mentioned in the text that summarises movement and is also contrary to the sense of the entire section.

I am at a complete loss to understand how you arrive at the notion that the paragraphs are separate rules in a section on the subject of skimmers, especially where the 'popping-up' text repeatedly refers to being high above the terrain. As I have tried to explain, the first paragraphs are a summary describing what a skimmer is, while the subsequent related paragraphs describe how the *single* rule works in game terms.

I can hear the summing up of a court of enquiry into a military incident:-
"Our intrepid troops fell six inches to their deaths disembarking from a 'popped-up' transport that had landed while flying high over the battlefield. This has been put down to pilot error in judging distances. The next of kin have been informed while the pilot is undergoing eye treatment and counselling".

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

I might add that this is one of the reasons why I do not think that "Always Popped Up" works for the Tau Manta. Simply put, if this is applied then the Manta cannot transport troops as they could never disembark. The reason being that 'popped-up' lasts to the end of the action, beyond the point where troops disembark to take part in an assault.

However if the Manta was considered a "Skimmer", then it could declare itself to be 'popped-up' to shoot or 'popped-down' to disembark or embark troops. Being a Skimmer would also mean that it could be hidden behind terrain etc; but that is another story as they say.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Ok, rather than continuing this repetitious (and rather boring) discussion, I get the impression that you and others agree with the sense of what I am saying while denying that the rules support this.

Could we have a stab at re-writing this whole section to do what we seem to agree is the intention behind the rules? Here is a rough draft to be going on with (additions and deletions highlighted):-2.1.13 Skimmers
Some units are noted as being skimmers. These units are equipped with devices that allow them to hover a short distance above the ground, so that they can fly over terrain that would slow other units down. Skimmers either operate 'hull-down' hovering a short distance above terrain and moving in a series of hops, or 'popped-up' flying longer distances high above the ground. Note that skimmers do not follow any of the rules for aircraft in section 4.0.

Skimmers may ignore dangerous or impassable terrain as they move. They may not land on impassable terrain, and if they land in dangerous terrain they must take a dangerous terrain test. Skimmers may also move over other friendly units as they move, but may not land on them. Enemy units and zones of control affect skimmers normally. 'Hull-down' Skimmers must land after every move while 'popped-up' skimmers only land after the action is complete.

A skimmer may declare that it is 'popping-up' at the start of any its action that it takes, including when the skimmer goes into Overwatch. A skimmer may not 'pop-up' as part of a Sustained fire action or , a Marshal action or a Hold, but may 'pop-up' when it makes an Advance, Double, March, Engage or goes onto Overwatch. 'Popping-up' counts as movement for the purposes of triggering firing by enemy units on overwatch. A skimmer that has 'popped-up', ‘pops-down’ at the conclusion of the action. Skimmers on overwatch do not 'pop-down' until after they make their overwatch attack. 'Popped-up' Skimmers with a transport capacity may disembark jet-pack equipped troops, but may not embark or disembark other units while they are 'popped-up', and if they are destroyed while they are 'popped-up' then any units on board will be destroyed with no save.

A skimmer that has 'popped-up' is assumed to be flying high enough that terrain beneath it and nearby intervening terrain that is closer to the skimmer than the target does do not block the line of fire. To check if the line of fire is blocked, simply measure the distance between the skimmer and the terrain, and then measure the distance between the terrain and the target unit. If the skimmer is nearer to the intervening terrain then the line of fire is not blocked. If the skimmer is further from the terrain, then work out the line of fire normally. If the distance is is equal, then both the skimmer and the target unit can fire at each other, but they both count as being in cover and the cover to hit modifier will apply.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Ginger, first, the point you seem to be missing, again and again, despite it being completely clear in the text of the rule, is that "popped-up" has NOTHING to do with a skimmer's ability to ignore terrain.  *NOTHING*  You just seem to be ignoring this, and it's baffling to me.

The third paragraph is *NOT* explaining how the second paragraph works, it's explaining something completely different: how to work out potential Lines of Fire for skimmers.

Secondly, "landing" for the skimmer does *not* mean "come to rest on the ground", it simply means "ending a move"... Yes, it's paradoxical that a skimmer can "land" and be "popped-up" at the same time, but it's because those are "rules conditions" not "real life" effects.

Now, since you don't seem to want to accept my interpretation, I've contacted Neal, and he should be by shortly to clear things up.

I *DO* realize how you've come about your "interpretation", but it is not supported by the rules; should it be looked at?  Yes.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

The problem is that the final version of the rules in the errata wasn't reflective of the intent.  To be honest, I have no recollection of what versions wandered through the boards at what time.  However, the final version is pretty lousy, because it was beaten to death and it was like pulling teeth to get the SG/GW approval and everyone who reviewed the final language was to the point of "can we just get this over with before we look like extras from Scanners?"

The intent was that "popping up" was part of movement and therefore could or couldn't be undertaken based on whether the unit was moving.  However, instead of stating that explicitly, it gives a list of times when you can or cannot pop up, and the list isn't completely in line with the original intent.

So, do you want to go with intent, or with RAW?  RAW is the normal assumption, but it's just screwed up in a number of ways.

1)  You can pop up on a Hold action because it's not in the list of actions excluded from popping up (Marshall and Sustain).  That is 100% against both the intent and the revised FAQ.

2)  You cannot pop up during a countercharge, because popping up states explicitly that it can only be done at the beginning of an action, and the defender in an assault is clearly not taking an action.

3)  "Landing" is never defined.  There's a vague implication that it is equated with beginning/ending a move, but it is never stated.  Also, the FAQ about embarking troops arguably separates out the begin/end move technical definition of "landing" from a more intuitive understanding.

4)  Skimmers on pop up can embark or disembark troops freely and troops in a popped up skimmer that is destroyed are no longer subject to the "auto kill" result, both of which were in the original rules and entirely sensible.

5)  The question that started this entire thread - a skimmer that's assumed to be "popped up" 10s of meters in the air has no different movement rule than one flying nap of the earth.

===

Because of the confusions, I can only  say what I would do if I were forced to make a call.  I would try to meet both RAW and what I know to be the intent as far as possible.  The "wiggle room" to do that is provided by the lack of definition over what constitutes "landing," imho.

If I were a judge at a tourney and this question came up, I would invoke the non-definition of "landing" and say that a skimmer which is popped up NEVER lands during its action until it "pops down" as the rules call it.  That means no terrain checks and, based on the FAQ that implies embarking/dismbarking requires terrain checks caused by "landing," no embarking or disembarking troops.

That would make Ginger's interpretation correct - no terrain checks until the very end of the action, after everything, including the consolidation move (or withdrawal) at the end of assault.


However, I don't think that the opposing interpretation of "three distinct rules, pop up is for fire only and does not affect movement" is without merit.  If I were at a tournament and someone called that on me, I might be unhappy or disappointed, but I wouldn't feel like I had been unfairly slighted or "robbed" or "rules lawyered" in some way.

_________________
Neal

Thanks, Neal!

Just to confirm one thing: A skimmer can move safely over dangerous terrain *WITHOUT* popping-up, correct?

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

This old thread may or may not throw some light on the skimmer discussion.

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 69;t=10721

Neal, many thanks for the reply.

So where do we go from here guys given that the current rules seem open to different interpretations??

I presume that it is unlikely that we will be able to revise the 2008 errata, and possibly also unlikely that we can add some changes to the 2008 FAQ.

Can we do anything in TacComs to cover this (and any other) issue that arises? For example, is it possible to add this to 'the handbook'? Alternatively can we start an FAQ thread here (or on the revised SG forum when/if that comes about)?

===
Chroma, many thanks for your patience and apologies for being obtuse. As far as I am concerned, a skimmer has always been able to pass safely over any terrain without testing irrespective of being 'popped-up' or not. These issues arise when it actually ends its move in the middle of the terrain.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Heh.  Yes.  That one I can actually answer definitively.

_________________
Neal