Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

Tyranids vs. IG - 3000 points

 Post subject: Tyranids vs. IG - 3000 points
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:38 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am
Posts: 876
Location: Brest - France
AFTER ACTION REPORT

Wow, this was probably the closest and longest game I ever played!  :alien: Very, very enjoyable, this is the kind of game that makes you loves EA even more.  :))

OK, a few comments.

V9.1 modifications

- 20 cm move for Warriors > This is great. No longer do the Warriors slow down their swarm. Please, pretty please, implement this in the next version as it really helps those poor infantry swarms.

- Lictors with Sniper > never really used, they only engaged the Rough Riders and the Sniper ability didn't make any difference. But I think it's better than MW.

- Hormagaunts with 2xCC5+ > This is OK. I still think First Strike would help them and the infantry swarms a lot, but I can live without it. Would 2xCC5+, FS and +25pts for 4 Hormagaunts be too much?

- All units ignore difficult terrain > Love it. I quickly lost count of the number of difficult terrain tests I should have made without this rule.

- +2 to Engage > This felt right. Tyranids can finally do the only thing they are good at without fear of failing the activation (unless you retain and have BMs, but that's perfectly normal).

- +2 to rally rolls > This felt good, perhaps a little too good even. I think it's OK to see Tyranids rally easily, they should, but I may be biased.  :alien: +2 puts them just above Marines in terms of rallying. +1 is just like Marines.

And now the big one: those damned infantry swarms are, as Jeridian put it, a liability. My Titans (Harridans included) did most of the work while none of my Assault Swarms did anything but lose assaults. Whether I Engaged or not made no difference.

For both big engagements involving my Assault Swarms, I ran a few numbers comparing the different proposals:

Engagement #1 -  Storm Troopers (SHT's in support) vs. Assault Swarm 1

IG casualties > 2
'nids casualties > 9

Combat resolution
- Normal rules > +7 to IG [(9 + 1 (Inspiring)] - [2 + 1 (more units)]
- "Full Expandable" > +1 to 'nids [(1 (Inspiring)] - [2 + 1 (more units)]
- "1/2 Expendable" > +3 to IG [(4 + 1 (Inspiring)] - [2 + 1 (more units)]
- 6+ save in assault > +5-6 to IG, depending on the saves
- CC4+, First Strike to Hormagaunts > +7 to IG (no Hormagaunts in CC)

Engagement #2 -  Assault Swarm 2 (Harridan in support) vs. Infantry company & Sentinels

IG casualties > 5
'nids casualties > 9

Combat resolution
- Normal rules > +3 to IG [(9 + 1 (Inspiring)] - [5 + 1 (more units) + 1 (less BMs)]
- "Full Expandable" > +6 to 'nids [1 (Inspiring)] - [5 + 1 (more units) + 1 (less BMs)]
- "1/2 Expendable" > +2 to 'nids [(4 + 1 (Inspiring)] - [5 + 1 (more units) + 1 (less BMs)]
- 6+ save in assault > +1-2 to IG, depending on the saves
- CC4+, First Strike to Hormagaunts > Hard to tell, but 2-3 less hits from IG, so 1-2 less casualty on the 'nid side for something like +1-2 to IG.

>>> So the "Full Expendable" option is clearly too powerful, as both times it turns a defeat into a victory. "1/2 Expendable" looks like a good "equalizer" option: it gives 'nids a better chance of winning by a close margin or at least of not losing so badly. The other options don't seem to make much of a difference.





Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids vs. IG - 3000 points
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:51 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Quote: (Hojyn @ 29 Jan. 2009, 17:14 )

Can somebody please tell me for sure how many points the IG scored? Also, do the ninds get to spawn before the tie-breaker calculation?

Nids do get to spawn before scoring, as checking victory conditions is the last thing you do in the End Phase.

Tyranids still on the table
1 Harridan (2 DC left), 2 Gargoyles and 1 Termagant

No points awarded.

1 Tyranid Warrior (broken), 2 Hormagaunts and 1 Termagant
2 Dead Tyranid Warriors
1st Assault Group under half and broken: 300 points

1 Tyranid Warrior and 11 Termagants (broken)
2 Dead Tyranid Warriors
2nd Assault Group under half and broken: 300 points

1 Hive Tyrant, 3 Dactylis, 2 Carnifex, 3 Hormagaunts
1 Hierophant
No points awarded.

Destroyed Tyranids
1 Harridan
400 points awarded

1 Hierophant
275 points awared.

4 Lictors
200 points awarded.

1 Carnifex
No clutches destroyed or under half, no points awarded.

1 Dactylis
One clutch, half or under, 37.5 points awarded.

10 Gargoyles
3 clutches destroyed/under half: 150 points

11 Hormagaunts
3 clutches destroyed/under half: 75 points

14 Termagants
4 clutches destroyed/under half 150 points

Total: 1888 points awarded to the Imperial Guard.




_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids vs. IG - 3000 points
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:44 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:50 am
Posts: 835
During Turn 4 and 5, isn't the IG SHT out of formation? The discussion on the Air Assault thread pointed out that while a War Machine has to remain within DCx5cm of a regular unit, this does not work in reverse, and the regular unit would still be required to be within 5cm of another unit in that formation?

Morgan Vening


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids vs. IG - 3000 points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:45 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:15 am
Posts: 461
Location: UK
- 20 cm move for Warriors > This is great. No longer do the Warriors slow down their swarm. Please, pretty please, implement this in the next version as it really helps those poor infantry swarms.


I may be controversial here and suggest Termagants drop to 15cm. This way Warriors and Termies can Garrison, thus starting closer to the enemy (a form of faster mobility). It also fits the Nid backgound, where scurrying stampedes of Warrior led Gaunts are the vanguard of a ground advance, spreading ahead of the big monsters, locating enemy positions, etc.

At present we have the bizarre reversal where the Hive Tyrant and Carnifex's, typically the heavy hitters that arrive after the wave assaults of Gaunts in background are actually the garrison forces that deploy ahead, with the gaunts scurrying to catch up.

Lictors with Sniper > never really used, they only engaged the Rough Riders and the Sniper ability didn't make any difference. But I think it's better than MW.


TBH, without MW I wouldn't bother taking them. They are a suicide charge, and let's be honest it's 3 MW on hits (for a 3 man unit) at 150pts. It will not make a dint, or win an engagement against a normal formation. Lictors are meant to pop up at an isolated Basilisk battery, or with some fleeing fragment of a broken formation, and tear it apart- then being gunned down.
Poor armour saves, slow movement, no guns and MW assault achieves this- they get one-shot, they charge in and gut 3 things, then their done.

- Hormagaunts with 2xCC5+ > This is OK. I still think First Strike would help them and the infantry swarms a lot, but I can live without it. Would 2xCC5+, FS and +25pts for 4 Hormagaunts be too much?


Always interesting to see Hormagaunt ideas, at present with the 9.1 version I dropped them completely, absolutely not worth it. We've been over the idea that Gaunts/Gants are useless in a direct engagement, so without guns and without the ability to claim their sole purpose is Supporting Fire. Hormagaunts clearly suck at this.

- All units ignore difficult terrain > Love it. I quickly lost count of the number of difficult terrain tests I should have made without this rule.


It would be a lot less fiddly moving a Carnifex and Hive Tyrants through terrain...three moves.
But keeping new Special Rules to a minimum is key- 'Walker' exists and represent Nid 'vehicles' being better able to traverse terrain well.

- +2 to Engage > This felt right. Tyranids can finally do the only thing they are good at without fear of failing the activation (unless you retain and have BMs, but that's perfectly normal).

Basically this is auto-engage all the time. A bit overkill IMO. Every army should have to account for an element of risk.

- +2 to rally rolls > This felt good, perhaps a little too good even. I think it's OK to see Tyranids rally easily, they should, but I may be biased.   +2 puts them just above Marines in terms of rallying. +1 is just like Marines.


Again, auto-rally for all but Broken formations- every army should have to account for risk.

The whole point of the Blast Marker system is that your opponent (and you) can affect the opponent's armies 'morale' and 'combat effectiveness' in a more realistic way than simply killing them. In war putting machine gun fire onto an enemy position will make them more likely to make mistakes, go to ground, etc even if no casualties are caused.
Suppression is often as important as actual casualties in reducing the enemy army's ability to react and move.

And now the big one: those damned infantry swarms are, as Jeridian put it, a liability. My Titans (Harridans included) did most of the work while none of my Assault Swarms did anything but lose assaults. Whether I Engaged or not made no difference.


I'm finding that too, disturbingly I'm also finding it's smarter for my to try to hold my 3 Obj and Hold the Line than rush the enemy. 1- The enemy must close with Nids if they want to stop me claiming these objectives. 2- The further from the enemy I am the more easily I can Spawn my army back.

Note that WEs assault attacks are not "pooled" as such. WE CC attacks only hit on base-to-base while FF attacks only hit on 15cm and LOS and not base-to-base. So using just CC here would mean that only 1 unit would be hit.


That's how I first played and interpreted it.

I was under the idea that it had been changed so that CC and Firefight rolls are 'pooled' then distributed evenly, to CC stands first, then outwards.

1- It's a lot easier to figure out.
2- It's far less fiddly with where and what models engage what.
3- CC only or preferable units (e.g. the entire Nid army) aren't unfairly screwed over compared to good Firefights. A good Firefight is hugely more powerful than a good CC value.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids vs. IG - 3000 points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:24 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Quote: (Jeridian @ 30 Jan. 2009, 00:45 )

I may be controversial here and suggest Termagants drop to 15cm. This way Warriors and Termies can Garrison, thus starting closer to the enemy (a form of faster mobility). It also fits the Nid backgound, where scurrying stampedes of Warrior led Gaunts are the vanguard of a ground advance, spreading ahead of the big monsters, locating enemy positions, etc.

Gaunts used to be 15cm, the reason Gaunts were bumped up to 20cm was, essentially, to stop them from garrisoning after the horror of the "Termagant Terror" was shown.

Since you can take a tonne of Gaunts, a large swarm can be garrisoned right to the middle of the table no matter where the opponent places objectives.  Using the Termagant Terror, which was just Tyranid Warriors and Termagants, the Tyranids could completel fill their entire half of the table with their zones of control.  While this might be "fluffy", it didn't make for good or fun game play, so their movement was bumped up.

Basically this is auto-engage all the time. A bit overkill IMO. Every army should have to account for an element of risk.

Again, auto-rally for all but Broken formations- every army should have to account for risk.

The whole point of the Blast Marker system is that your opponent (and you) can affect the opponent's armies 'morale' and 'combat effectiveness' in a more realistic way than simply killing them. In war putting machine gun fire onto an enemy position will make them more likely to make mistakes, go to ground, etc even if no casualties are caused.
Suppression is often as important as actual casualties in reducing the enemy army's ability to react and move.


The point of the "auto-engage/auto-rally" is that, this is what Nids do.

They aren't suppressed the way "normal" individual soldiers would be; they can bounce back with terrifiying swiftness because, when the Hive Mind controls them they don't *care* about getting killed or shot at.  They don't have morale... killing them is the only thing that stops them.

Each army doesn't have to play the same way and the special rules are supposed to reflect that.




_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids vs. IG - 3000 points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:00 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am
Posts: 876
Location: Brest - France
Quote: (Jeridian @ 30 Jan. 2009, 00:45 )

I was under the idea that it had been changed so that CC and Firefight rolls are 'pooled' then distributed evenly, to CC stands first, then outwards.

1- It's a lot easier to figure out.
2- It's far less fiddly with where and what models engage what.
3- CC only or preferable units (e.g. the entire Nid army) aren't unfairly screwed over compared to good Firefights. A good Firefight is hugely more powerful than a good CC value.

That's how we play it here, for the reasons Jeridian pointed out.

Isn't that how the new Hit Allocation rules work?

EDIT: Just re-read the corresponding section (3.3.2) and well, I was wrong once again.  :p So, you first choose to split your attacks between CC and FF, then you allocate CC hits only to units in base contact and FF hits only to units not in base contact within 15 cm. The new Hit Allocation rules have nothing to do with it.





Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids vs. IG - 3000 points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:07 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand
Terrific report Hojyn!

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids vs. IG - 3000 points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:28 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am
Posts: 876
Location: Brest - France
Thanks Chroma... but I'm afraid it's still unclear.  :sad:

Tyranids still on the table
1 Harridan (2 DC left), 2 Gargoyles and 1 Termagant

No points awarded.

The Harridan is at half-strength. So that should be 200 points for IG, right? (half of the cost x 2 because it's a Synapse).

1 Tyranid Warrior (broken), 2 Hormagaunts and 1 Termagant
2 Dead Tyranid Warriors
1st Assault Group under half and broken: 300 points

1 Tyranid Warrior and 11 Termagants (broken)
2 Dead Tyranid Warriors
2nd Assault Group under half and broken: 300 points


What about the broken Gaunts? I count 12 Termagaunts and 2 Hormagaunts here, all broken. So shouldn't that be 3 full Termies clusters and 1/2 Hormagaunt cluster?

i.e.
Termagants: (75x3)/2 = 112,5, again  divided by 2 (Brood creatures count half their points) = 56,25 points
Hormagaunts: 50/2 = 25 (full points for under half and broken, divided by 2 because they're Brood creatures)

1 Hive Tyrant, 3 Dactylis, 2 Carnifex, 3 Hormagaunts
1 Hierophant
No points awarded.

Destroyed Tyranids
1 Harridan
400 points awarded

1 Hierophant
275 points awared.

4 Lictors
200 points awarded.

OK

1 Carnifex
No clutches destroyed or under half, no points awarded.

1 Dactylis
One clutch, half or under, 37.5 points awarded.

OK

10 Gargoyles
3 clutches destroyed/under half: 150 points

11 Hormagaunts
3 clutches destroyed/under half: 75 points

14 Termagants
4 clutches destroyed/under half 150 points

Now I'm lost again.

Taking the Gargoyles as an example, I count 2 fully destroyed Gargoyle Flocks, so: (2x100)/2 (because they're Brood creatures)= 100 points.

But the 2 remaining Gargoyles... shouldn't they count as "under half but not broken", meaning 100/2 and divided by 2 again because they're Brood creatures (25 points total)?

Maybe it's just me, but the whole system feels overly complex. Wouldn't it be simpler to either:

- Count only Synapse Groups and Independant Creatures (making them count respectively thrice and twice their points value, for example, or perhaps only twice and 1,5 times?)

or

- a) count individual units only and b) make a chart stating once and for all how much points you get if unit X is destroyed or broken (say, 20 points for a destroyed Termagant, 10 points if it's broken).





Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids vs. IG - 3000 points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:09 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am
Posts: 876
Location: Brest - France
Quote: (Hena @ 30 Jan. 2009, 08:58 )

Note that upping move of the Warriors to 20cm would actually mean that any swarm using pure warriors would be faster than swarm with Tyrant.

And do you like the idea or not, Hena?

Note than you can get a Winged Tyrant with 25cm move.

- +2 to Engage > This felt right. Tyranids can finally do the only thing they are good at without fear of failing the activation (unless you retain and have BMs, but that's perfectly normal).

Basically this is auto-engage all the time. A bit overkill IMO. Every army should have to account for an element of risk.
Well it's not entirely automatic. Retain + BMs fails on 1.

Exactly. Really, +2 to Engage is fine. It doesn't make 'nids better at shooting or at moving around the battlefield, it just gives them a good chance of doing the only thing they can do well: Engage.

With +2, you can move a formation in support range (activating on 2+) and then Engage without fear of a failed activation. Which is needed, IMO.

- +2 to rally rolls > This felt good, perhaps a little too good even. I think it's OK to see Tyranids rally easily, they should, but I may be biased.   +2 puts them just above Marines in terms of rallying. +1 is just like Marines.

Again, auto-rally for all but Broken formations- every army should have to account for risk.
It causes automatic removal of BMs. But if the swarm is broken, you have to roll for it. This is important as Tyranids should be better than Marines and it reduces rolling in end phase.

Yes, you're still rallying on 2+ or 3+ if close to the enemy. Compared to the Marines 3+/4+, this is better but shouldn't nids have the best morale of all armies?

Auto-removal of BMs is nice too, it's much faster and since 'nids have few Leaders they will rarely get rid of all BMs anyway.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids vs. IG - 3000 points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:23 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am
Posts: 876
Location: Brest - France
Quote: (Hena @ 30 Jan. 2009, 09:13 )

I think this is about WEs in general. Do they count per DC or per WE? I mean if you got two Warhounds on a formation is it reduced to half strength by losing one Warhound? Yes. Is it reduced to under half strength by losing 2 DC each? I suppose Chroma is saying no.

Well, the rulebook says (6.1, last paragraph just above 6.2)

For the purpose of this rule, a formation’s ‘strength’ is equal to the number of units in the formation plus the (remaining) damage capacity of any war engines.


There is no such thing as under half but not broken bit in Tyranids tiebreak rules.

You get full points if it's broken, destroyed or 'reduced below half'. I would actually amend that to 'reduced half strength or less' to match that bit in rulebook.

I see. My mistake, then.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net