Thank you. I can agree with this now.

Do I still get the free minis?  

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Frogbear is responsible for...
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Guessing ranges adds an extra element of FOW, on top of that provided by the activation rolls.  It can be used to further increase the excitement and tension in a game. With pre-measuring the game is more tactical and increases it's gameness. For the reasons neal hunl described it's not always fair to have guessing on some players and therefore I think, be avoided in all competitive and tournament games. Certainly no tournament in the UK uses guessing.

As to the miniatures. I'm a long term epic player since 1st ed Space Marine. I played it for the 'roleplay' factor. The cool minis fighting it out. As a game (especially when I look back) it was pretty crap. 3rd ed was an improvement but Armageddon is just amazing. It stands on it's own  without minis. But, I love the minis. Like I said minis now provide an extra dimension to the game. You get the best of both worlds, a brilliant game AND citadel miniatures. This satisfies both the gamer in my and the collector/hobbyist in me.

Years ago I virtually gave up on GW. These days I love Epic more than I ever did and thus GW still get plenty of my hobby cash.
I think most (though not all) epic players feel the same way.

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Years ago I virtually gave up on GW. These days I love Epic more than I ever did and thus GW still get plenty of my hobby cash.
I think most (though not all) epic players feel the same way.

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Frogbear is responsible for...
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I'm all for no pre-measuring. Actually the rules of all GW games are designed with that in mind. Some people might not like it, but it's part of the design concept that troops may make mistakes when trying to shoot at the enemy or moving etc and I like it.

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"Your limbs are mighty. Let them smite the foes of our Emperor."

To build on what others have said, IMO it also depends upon the scale of the game. For skirmish level games where the player takes on the role of individuals, guessing / fog of war etc is part of the experience. At the army level, where the player is taking on the role of a 'general', the experience is one of developing and applying strategy and tactics while local decisions about targets and just when to fire or charge are all abstracted by the game (so IMHO pre-measuring is totally appropriate at this level). In that sense, people are correct that E:A more resembles chess, being a "strategic" game between two kingdoms where the outcomes of individual actions are more predictable.

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E:A 'Chess'
If people dislike the predicatability of chess so much, you could always introduce E:A style shooting and assault resolution mechanisms to the game which would work something like this (I am sure this has already been done) :-

Shooting:-
when you move a piece, if it ends up where it can take an enemy piece in it's next move, it may 'shoot' at that enemy piece. On a '6', the enemy piece must retreat one square, being destroyed if it cannot retreat.

Assault:-
When a piece 'takes' an opposing piece, each player throws a a pair of D6 using the higher score modified as follows:-
+1 if it is a pawn
+2 if it is 'bigger 'piece'
+3 if it is the king that is being attacked
+1 for each friendly piece in support (that can also move to the square)

Assault resolution

• If the attacker wins by double the attacking total, the opposing piece is removed.
  
• If the attacker wins by less than double the defenders score, the defending piece must retreat one square, being removed if it cannot.
  
• on a draw, the attacking piece retreats one square.
  
• If the defender wins by less than double the attackers score, the attacking piece returns to the square it started on.
  
• If the defender wins by double the attacking total, the attacking piece is removed.

'Check' and 'Checkmate:-
When the opposing king is shot at without effect, it may elect to stay in place and ignores "check". However, the game is lost if the King is forced to move and has no legitimate place to go, or if the King is successfully assaulted.

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That's not true.  Epic was never designed with guess range and GWs core games have reduced the guess-range requirements, replacing it with randomizing mechanisms like scatter dice and firepower dice.

Some people might not like it, but it's part of the design concept that troops may make mistakes when trying to shoot at the enemy or moving etc and I like it.

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Neal

Always non pre-measurment for me.

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I'd tend to agree with nealhunt.

The attraction to guessing ranges is that it adds to "Fog of War," as many have argued above.  But the problem is that this FOW is not truly random -- rather, it correlates with player skill.  And, further, it raises the question of what we are trying to simulate with a range-guess?    

And there are better, relatively simple ways of reproducing battlefield unpredictability that do not provide the incentive for players to 'game' the system.

Pre-measuring makes for a different game.  I play with pre-measuring but if somebody askedme to play without it I wouldn't complain.  I've done it before and it wasn't horrible.

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

40K rules are "beer & pretzel" ... coupled with many "over-the-top" models, it is truely a "kidz" game ... for the "likes bright shiny things" crowd.     Just my thoughts on that ...

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Randomized factors are used to simulate that.  The major advantage is that they can be set up to reflect different troop and equipment quality.  Space Marines making an error can be unlikely while Grots running a Big Gun can be highly likely to make a mistake.

In contrast, the ability of a player to guess range is the same no matter what quality the forces are.  That is not at all in keeping with the background.

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Nah, the models are top notch. I just wish the rules were better. By a long shot.

Or the players

Well Always Do What Works For You (ADWWFY)!   But for my tastes, some are a bit too ... weird ...   I'm a Hammer-phile anyway ... [note Av]  

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

I have to agree the models for 40K are incredible. Collecting and painting an army for it is a reward in itself.

Epic may have a superior system and cooler scale on its side, but 40K has the models. Just take a look at the Orks that were released this month. They keep getting better and better.

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

Pre-measuring definitely. the "no pre-measuring" rule was probably invented by the carpenters who made the first figures for the first wargames played by the staff officers of various armies.

I don't buy the "no pre-measuring" for fantasy/medieval either. Reason: the player is a GENERAL. Not a line soldier or even a unit commander. Since when did a general personally estimate distances to targets? He trusted his subordinates to do that.

As for fog of war/confusion, there are much better mechanisms for that. The command roll is one example.

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