Sorry Iron~, you seem to have missed the point.
What I advocate is a a base list for every army. And from that point you can diversify.

And I really didn't understand you re eldar... And have I complained? Not really. And I've already made that list, as per above: Warhosts Guardian and Dire Avenger, more Guardian than Avengers.

And that goes for IG too, not understanding you.
And also there I've made the basic suggestion. Or at least something to start discussing from.

If I where you I'd re-read Malakai above (Post #30) and apply the same basic TO&E principle to all armies. As that is how personal demographics/logistics are.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Sorry for off-topic but is there any hope of receiving original layout files for Epic:A rulebook from SG/Jervis? Or has this been tried and gave no results?

HAH!  

This attitude is the reason why I was hesitant to bring up the subject again. People start to get twitchy around here when they perceive any sort of criticism (imagined or not).

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

It's done already.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

You made an Eldar list Erik M?

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

The NetERC is actually working on this via original files and other resources and is almost complete.

One of the problems has been that most of the files only contained "placeholder" pictures/graphics linked to a GW graphic file database that we *weren't* given access to.  Hena has almost completed the core document and we'll be doing an internal review for typos, etc, and will then go for a general release.

Sorry if I can't give a specific release time as oddities in the files have cropped up on occasion and we want to get the best book out there that we can.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Yeah, it's called Alaitoc... *laugh*

Honestly, Alaitoc is the most "generic" Eldar army list that's been in general circulation... and I don't think I've ever seen a battle report featuring it that hasn't been written by me.

In my experience, people are attached to their specific Craftworld and don't *want* to play "Generic Craftworld".  Is the purpose of a "generic" list to give people a base to design their own, personal Craftworlds or is it for "generic" game play?  These are two very different goals.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Oh, that's great news! Best of luck in that.

Well the generic list isn't for people to feel punished that's for sure!    I had no idea that Alaitoc was the most unpopular of the Eldar army lists.

Maybe that says more about Rangers than anything else? I don't see them taken much (sort of like the War Walkers).

But I don't want to hijack the thread and turn it into my own personal soap box so I created this thread.

And it's for generic game play, but I can see it as a leaping stone or a tool for other lists.

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

The purpose of a "generic" list is to give people a base to design their own forces against.Maybe the closest to JJ's original idea we can come. But without those lists each new list is starting from scratch. Almost.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

If people are designing their own lists what is the difference, with Eldar for example, with people matching their own-designed list vs Biel-Tan than vs a "Generic Craftworld"?  I'm just not sure what the generic list brings to the table, especially if people are customizing a list to their own taste anyway.

I've considered putting together a points based, "Design Your Own Craftworld" document with "design points" assigned to various features/options, but the complexity of possible options soon showed it to be more work than just slapping stuff together and testing it directly.

Example: How do you cost/assess a Craftworld that integrates their Guardians and Aspect Warriors together in a single formation, working in direct support of each other?  There's no basis for it in the current lists, there's no basis for it in a "generic" list; it's something that needs to be tested/examined on it's own, since it's well outside the current design parameters... but it's *still* a cool idea!

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Well, I guess I'm just clueless as I still have no idea what the perceived problem is, much less the goal.  What is the intended benefit of imposing hard list restrictions?

Balance? - Already done.

Ease of introduction? - New players have strong incentives for force selection based on costs and packaging.  Old players actually benefit from more flexible lists as it allows them to use their toys more easily.

Preventing exotic/weird/non-fluffy armies? -  There's nothing to prevent.  A basic combined arms army structure is very intuitive and almost no one comes to Epic without knowledge of the 40K-verse.  Heck, this predisposition for "normal" among playtesters is probably the single biggest problem we've faced in trying to balance lists - it's actually hard to get people to do enough freaky power-gaming stuff.

Generating a specific flavor? - I agree this is a most excellent goal.  I strongly encourage this whenever possible.  However, it's not all that great for a core list to make this a driving factor as there are contradictory goals the core lists have to achieve as well - the need to accommodate multiple different play styles in the short run, the need to provide a template for future development, etc..  You can't have both so the core lists are a compromise.

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Edit:
The purpose of a "generic" list is to give people a base to design their own forces against.

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Neal

Thanks Hena, that's a big part of it.
There has been many different things in this thread. Much information and insight.

But if I would boil my reasoning down to one point, then it's that base formation should be just that, and support just that.
I can buy that titans come by their own. It's less kosher to field 34 Land Raiders or 18 Baneblades.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641