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Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)

 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:24 pm 
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It's literally heaps of work to do that dpt~. And the current lists need to be straightened out a fair bit to. And minimums worked in and thought out. (Infantry and artillery for IG as an example).

And when it comes to making good scenarios, that's even more work. But a bunch of them in their own book would be splendid. That way they can be found out to be "fair", "unfair", "unfair but not if combined" etc. That would be totally lovely. Esp for GT playing, real tournament battling.

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:32 pm 
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Another good thing about stable "codex" is that it would be easier to make non-GW forces. Hammer's Slammers, Kraytonian, Hastur etc etc.

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:32 pm 
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Quote: (Erik M @ 30 Dec. 2008, 11:24 )

It's literally heaps of work to do that dpt~. And the current lists need to be straightened out a fair bit to. And minimums worked in and thought out. (Infantry and artillery for IG as an example).

Heaps of work to do what Erik.I don't understand what this is aimed at.Could you show me what this was in response to  :agree: .


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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:41 pm 
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Quote: (Erik M @ 30 Dec. 2008, 11:24 )

And when it comes to making good scenarios, that's even more work. But a bunch of them in their own book would be splendid. That way they can be found out to be "fair", "unfair", "unfair but not if combined" etc. That would be totally lovely. Esp for GT playing, real tournament battling.

The rule book already includes at least 4 other good scenarios but a book with more of them and better play tested ones is ideal  :agree:

One of the regular tournament players has regularly hinted at using different scenarios at a tournament instead of just the GT one.
I agree that this would be a good idea and make for better tournaments and more thought going into army selection etc. :agree: .


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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:43 pm 
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Quote: (dptdexys @ 30 Dec. 2008, 04:05 )

The army lists are only for use with the Grand Tournament scenario (designed especially for tournament play as the name suggests).

It is also ideal for pick-up games against unknown,new or regular opponents to help give a balanced game (even if players have never played each other before).This is one reason for the limited type of army lists that are seen in Epic A.

If you own the rule book you should have read the design notes that state players are encouraged to change anything they want to suit their own gaming group.This includes Army lists even for the GT scenario.

You can produce any Army list you want with as much(full codex with every conceivable unit or formation in it) as little (Only 1 type of formation allowed,say Tacticals for a marine list) if that's what you want.You only have to get your opponents permission to use it not GW's or anyone here.

If you all know what type of list/codex you want then just produce it for your on use it doesn't have to have an official stamp here or anywhere.I personally prefer the more limited official list (BIEL-TAN/STEEL LEGION/GHAZGKHULL MAG URUK THRAKA’S
WAR HORDE etc.)
...
To those who want full codex list's I would say just go ahead and produce them.That's the beauty of epicA it's your game when you play it at home or with friends so you can (to quote a regular on the forum) DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU .

Ah yes I can see that's hard for you to find, as there's a full circle in what you're saying.

To conclude... DWWFY doesn't fly. Not if we want Epic to live.
To make Epic fly we need credibility and stability. Some ease of use would work too.

Nota Bene - Most of us don't have a gaming group of 50+ to draw from. We are maybe one and then two hours drive to the next one. Not fun to waste time on random DWWFY stuff then.

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:02 pm 
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Quote: (Erik M @ 30 Dec. 2008, 05:43 )

To conclude... DWWFY doesn't fly. Not if we want Epic to live.
To make Epic fly we need credibility and stability. Some ease of use would work too.

I don't think it's fair to say that Epic Armageddon doesn't have any credibility or stability. I like a lot of the work that's been done on the game so far.

The dedication that most of these players have given is admirable. Just because we don't agree with the direction the "list" style has gone doesn't mean that they don't deserve our respect.

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:11 pm 
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The more options you have, the harder it is to balance it as hidden synergy possibilities multiply exponentially.

People seem to like the idea of 40k 3rd-4th edition border customizable lists but forget that they were a total mess balance-wise. IG doctrines look good on paper but after looking closer you see that there are a few good ones and lots of crap - and no competitive player will pick up crap options. Space Marine traits were even worse with not only huge disparity of advantages but with also nonsense pseudo-drawbacks to "balance" them out. I won't even deign to talk about old Chaos codex. It had lots of options and character. Yeah. But... ewwwwwwwwwwwwww.

Either you want gobs of options or good balance. You can't have both.

If you want non-competitive options just mash two or three E:A lists together and voila. Good to go. But expecting to balance all that mess together is sheer folly.





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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:12 pm 
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The work done here has my most profound respect.

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:13 pm 
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More compulsory, that's the ticket.

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:19 pm 
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Quote: (vytzka @ 30 Dec. 2008, 06:11 )

Either you want gobs of options or good balance. You can't have both.

If you want non-competitive options just mash two or three E:A lists together and voila. Good to go. But expecting to balance all that mess together is sheer folly.

I disagree. I believe it would be more difficult to balance, but certainly not impossible.

As far as the trait system goes I never cared for that either. It added far too many variables and killer combos.

All of this is a moot point anyway. There is no desire to make a core list for the armies other than what's already been done.

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:26 pm 
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People seem to like the idea of 40k 3rd-4th edition border customizable lists but forget that they were a total mess balance-wise.

Ahh, a gap in my own knowledge then because I have never played 40K so this has passed me by. Ok, Noted. I understand the concept even if I haven't lived through the fact.

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:30 pm 
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Quote: (Malakai @ 30 Dec. 2008, 13:19 )

All of this is a moot point anyway. There is no desire to make a core list for the armies other than what's already been done.

Says who? Says you? But that's a biased statement. Doh!

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:32 pm 
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Quote: (Warhead @ 30 Dec. 2008, 13:26 )

People seem to like the idea of 40k 3rd-4th edition border customizable lists but forget that they were a total mess balance-wise.

Ahh, a gap in my own knowledge then because I have never played 40K so this has passed me by. Ok, Noted. I understand the concept even if I haven't lived through the fact.

Indeed this is a mess. But perhaps more a mess is wargear.
I would love to play 40k as if Epic. Moving in teams and blowing up (big!) tanks!
And no fiddling with the small stuff.

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 Post subject: Jervis Seminar at GT Heat 2 (stolen from Warseer)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:33 pm 
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Continued in other thread.

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