People can use what they want in friendlies, if it would help getting a balanced tournament list then excluding to Moray should be considered.

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It doesn't matter whether I'm playing friendly or not, I want to use a tournament legal list to ensure I'm playing as fair a game as possible (and I'm sure I'm not alone there).

This whole 'can we remove this unit from the list' thing just smacks of 'I can't be bothered to make it work so let's ditch it'.

For some of us that is not an option.
We must make it work and a lot of effort has recently gone into making Morays work. Let's leave the 'can it be removed' talk for something else... please?

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That´s why I said "if it would help".

Look Onyx, we are all (presumably) trying to make this list work, not try to nerf it to the point where "our" fave armies while trash those pesky Tau whenever they rear their silly heads. Pretty much all of the regulars here have played dozens, if not hundred of games and have commented on list development for years.

For example, the all-seeing support craft is not opposed because we all just hate to see our artillery blown to bits but rather since we have played with old skimmer rule (and Vultures and Fire Prisms) for a long time and "cannot hide at all" was found to be not only overly powerful and untactical, but d@mn annoying and un-fun.

There are any number sensible suggestions out there, and personally I just hope that CS will just wrap it up, release a new list that we can all work with and end all these circular discussions, at least for a moment.

Preferably soon.

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I just hope that CS will just wrap it up

Of course we're basing a lot of stuff on IA3:Taros.  It's the only source for large-scale Tau operations!

==========

Until IA3:Taros came out, Tau had one Titan-Killer platform: the Manta.  A Manta (using IA3 stats) would be hard-pressed to break a Reaver.  Ion Cannons to strip Void-Shields (ICs aren't strong enough to hurt Armor 14, but 9 shots should drop the shields just fine), then a few Seeker Missiles might inflict a point of DC (low odds).  Rails should do 2 points of DC, with their one shot.  That's 2-3 BMs from damage, plus one for getting attacked.  With a lot of luck, a Manta might be able to dish out 5DC in damage to a Reaver in one pass (VERY lucky), or you might be stuck with only 1DC of damage.

In IA3, the AX10 appeared.  The AX10 is capable of breaking or destroying a fully-shielded Warhound in a single attack pass.  Seeker Missiles drop the Shields and maybe do a point of DC, and the same rails as on the Manta will do d3 (average 2, but sometimes you get lucky) points of DC.  That's 2 BMs from damage, and another one for coming under attack.  That is one Broken (solo) Warhound, and with a bit of luck, it's a dead Warhound.

In the mean time, we on the forums had built the SG Manta to be a Warlord-analog (look at it! it's HUGE), and figured that the Tau needed a Reaver/Warhound-analog: the Moray.  When IA3 came out, the Manta was barely on par with a Reaver for firepower, but it had a huge transport bay.

I'd like to see the Manta brought down to FW/40k/IA3 firepower: One TK(d3), One Ion Phalanx (read as 3x Ion Cannons), Seeker Missiles, and (KISS) 8x burst cannons (360 AP/AA).

The question then becomes: What do we do about the Moray?  Currently, it's got Reaver-level weapons like the Manta, but it doesn't have the Transport like a Manta does.  So it's stepping on the Manta's gunship toes.  If we reduce the weapons, it's a higher-DC AX10.  Redundant either way, but I'm starting to prefer a ~450 point Moray and a ~650 point Manta.  You take the Manta when you need the transport capability, and the Moray when you don't need the transport.

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Yeah LiTS ....
Again, understood. However, I was making a point that justifying an in-game design with fluff isn't entirely how things should be done

Because many of us would like the EA Tau list to reflect the Tau armies of GW's background, not an army of our own imagination.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

We're also basing things on the Tau codexes, which also have Orcas and Mantas as primarily being the Tau's battlefield transports, rather than frontline Titan analogues.

Why aren't we allowed to use imagination to develop new and interesting designs?

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Because the rest of the game universe doesn't let us push the envelope.

Eldar have stagnated, and have been stagnant for 10k years (since the Great Crusade).  Before that, they were stagnant for even longer.
Imperial tech is 15k years or more stagnant, and they're losing technology instead of developing new.
Orks?  Haven't developed anything *new* since they were engineered, however long ago that was.
Chaos?  see also Imperial tech.  
Daemons?  still stuck on this idea of eating souls, no drive to develop any technology.
'Nids? always evolving, but never really changing.  The same broad genii have been present since the first contact with Behemoth (also, less than 500 years since first contact!)
Necrons?  Well, they've been asleep for 65 million years.  They haven't developed anything new except the Pariahs.

As best I can tell, the Taros Campaign was ~200 years ago in timeline.  If the Tau had continued to develop, a basic Crisis suit would carry a Broadside Railgun and a Stealth field, the Broadside would carry a bigger gun yet, and they would probably have gotten rid of tanks in favor of the battlesuits.  The battlesuits themselves would be faster and better armored, as well.  

When you aren't in a race to develop a weapon to take down the new vehicle that your enemy just developed, your tech stagnates.  The Tau could continue to push their technology to crazy levels, but there's no real pressure for them to do so.  If anything, the pressure is for them to send out seed colonies to prevent the Imperials from organizing a crusade and completely removing them from the Galactic stage.  The Tau are facing a Military threat that cannot really beat them except by sheer weight of numbers.  Therefore, the Tau need to dramatically increase their numbers to survive, not their military technology.

200 years ago, humans were fighting wars by standing in lines with muzzle-loading smoothbores.  Now, we use self-loading rifles that have 10x the range of the weapons from 200 years ago.  We wear body armor that will stop one of those old weapon's shots so well that it might not even be noticed.  We crawl on the ground, hide from each other and barely use the concept of 'lines' militarily anymore (except for supply lines).

How do you model such a revolution in military affairs in a game that still has people fighting in lines?  What do you think would happen to a Napoleonic division that was ambushed by a modern Platoon?  While interesting as a thought experiment, such a scenario would be very much not-fun to actually play for either side.

That's the situation we're in right now on the Tau list.  

In the Heavy Gear universe, Earth tech is leaps and bounds above anything that the locals can bring to bear.  An 'Equal Points' match on the same table is an Earth hovertank platoon versus nearly a battalion of Gears.  It's not fun to play that way, so much so that any scenario involving hovertanks is supposed to be played as a series of platoon engagements, but every local platoon is fresh while the Earth forces keep all their damage and ammo expenditures from game to game.  The game still ends up with a huge slaughter on one side before the Earthies go down, but it's a lot more fun to play.

==========
*Deep breath* Calm down, Lion.  No need to be rude.

Is there anything wrong with the Moray as a 'Manta-without-transport'?  IE, having both of them basically fill the same role, and use a Manta as the transport-with-guns, Moray as a dedicated Gunship?

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No.

It is a perfectly acceptable and playable idea.

The only question is over how much firepower they have (I'm still for 2x MW3+(TKD3) of course   ).

For example, the all-seeing support craft is not opposed because we all just hate to see our artillery blown to bits but rather since we have played with old skimmer rule (and Vultures and Fire Prisms) for a long time and "cannot hide at all" was found to be not only overly powerful and untactical, but d@mn annoying and un-fun.

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Ok, since the discussion has reached something of an impasse, why don't we each revisit the original point of this thread, for us each to just post our ideas for unit changes, updated based on the discussions we've had, so we can see where agreement has been reached...

GMs require ML to be fired; no unguided mode.

MANTA: Playtest as a bomber, stats something like:

Maybe requite it to move 45cm before each turn rather than 30cm to represent its size?


ORCA: Remove Guided Missile weapon, Remove AA.

VESPID : Remove to section 6.

FIRE WARRIORS : Give them markerlights.

SWORDFISH : Replace with the forgeworld Fusion Cannon varient (30cm, MW4+).

ETHEREAL : Add Inspiring

SHAS'O COMMANDER : Delete Tau Supreme Commander Special Rule, incorporate into notes.

CRISIS BATTLESUIT : Increase MW 15cm attack to 3+. Replace Tau Jet Pack rule with 15cm move at end of activation. Movement 20cm. Points increase?

MORAY :  Reduce the range on the main guns to 45cm and change to always popped up. Consider further changes if Manta works as a bomber...

SCORPIONFISH : Remove the "unguided" firing mode. DC 2?

MARKERLIGHT SENTRY DRONE : Remove to section 6.

BROADSIDE BATTLESUIT: Reduce railgun range to 60cm, make infantry, armour changes to 3+, lose reinforced armour.

STEALTH BATTLESUIT: Replace Tau Jet Pack rule with 15cm move at end of activation. Movement 20cm.

ALL TAU JETPACKS: Replace Tau Jet Pack rule with 15cm move at end of activation. -5cm from Movement speed.
ALL RAILGUNS: Reduce range to 60cm.
ALL DEFLECTOR SHIELDS: 5+ invulnerable save (or a standard invulnerable save and a points decrease...).

Aircraft per TRC.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

And what tanks your line of reasoning is PLANETFALL.


Really, the issue is not only sniping artillery but also stuff thats 44,9cm away, pressed against the back of a building or similiar major LoS-blocker, where it would be impossible to get with Skimmers yet the Support Craft see&nail them.

And let´s face it, people will becoming at the Tau and there are plenty off situations where the Morays will have a turkey shoot, sustaining in the middle of their board side.

I think we won´t ever agree on this. All-seeing cannot be allowed on non-air units, it´s a constant slap in the face for opponents.

APU is the way to go for Tau Support Craft, and I sure hope it gets adapted eventually.

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GMs require ML to be fired; no unguided mode.

In your opinion.

And just so you know mate, I deployed my Morays via PLANETFALL in the last game I mentioned, so obviously I didn't forget it. Yeah it meant they could retain and fire... of course it also meant the opposition could SUSTAIN and fire on them. VERY different from the old days of blasting away from 75cm and not getting shot back at. In my opinion, APU is not the solution.

Why is it that players are able to play with an abstracted aircraft rule but are incapable of using an abstracted Support Craft rule? It is mind boggling...


Take an example of a Marauder bomber attacking a tank that is RIGHT next to a tall building at a range of 45cm (using Twin Lascannons). All good and legal so far.
After the attack, the Marauder moves 30cm forward and turns 45* away from the target. Moves on again and completes it's move. Due to the height of the building, the Marauder NEVER got a direct line of sight and never would have unless it was directly overhead.

No one is complaining about this because there is obviously some common sense needed to abstract the rules in a simple way to make them playable.

There is no difference with Support Craft and peoples inability to get this is quite frustrating. Saying things like "aircraft are very fast" does not explain rules needed to make aircraft work. We just accept it because it is simple and playable (and that is quite right).

Support Craft is quite simple and playable in it's present form. Indeed, if the Manta is turned into a bomber (and I really hope it isn't - no offence zombo) the amount of firepower available to kill/break it will be drastically reduced (AA weapons only). Right now, even an AP only weapon can put a blast marker on a Support Craft (and I've seen it done to great effect - Moray's only require 3BM's to break).

As to my unit suggestions not much has changed from my previous thoughts.

Leave GM/ML rules as is.

Leave Support Craft rules as is.

MANTA: Reduce weapon range and replace Self-Planetfall with standard Planetfall.

ORCA: Remove Guided Missile attack.

VESPID : Remove to section 6.

FIRE WARRIORS : leave as is.

SWORDFISH : Leave as is.

ETHEREAL : Add Inspiring

SHAS'O COMMANDER : Delete Tau Supreme Commander Special Rule, incorporate all features into notes.

CRISIS BATTLESUIT : Increase MW 15cm attack to 3+. Add MW to FF. Replace Tau Jet Pack rule with 15cm move at end of activation. -5cm from Movement speed.

MORAY :  Reduce the range on the main guns (Rail and Ion) to 45cm.

SCORPIONFISH : leave as is.

MARKERLIGHT SENTRY DRONE : Make it a normal unit (With Scout & Fearless but no ZOC) in a formation of 3 drones, which could garrison but with NO activation (as per present Turret rules). Recuce the Armour Save to 6+.

BROADSIDE BATTLESUIT: leave as is (maybe change armour save to 3+ if anything).

STEALTH BATTLESUIT: leave as is.

TAU DRONES: Make Standard Drones only available as an upgrade (which don't give Blast Markers when destroyed).
Keep Heavy Drones available as a Support Group but take BM's normally if in a formation on their own (no BM's when used as an upgrade).

ALL TAU JETPACKS: Replace Tau Jet Pack rule with 15cm move at end of activation. -5cm from Movement speed.
ALL DEFLECTOR SHIELDS: 5+ invulnerable save as Per TRC's suggestion.

Aircraft per TRC's ideas (as long as AX-1-0 are not WE in a group of 2).

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