Sure there is.

Eldar/Dark Eldar/Necron formations left offboard when all portals on board are destroyed?

It's the number one way my necrons lose.

Ok, so how about we drop all values by one and make ML +2 to hit? Currently the +1 bonus is barely worth bothering about.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Good call with the units off-board problem. That does make for an interesting precident...

I have my Necron army finished but I've only had a chance to use them 3 times, looking forward to getting more games in with them.

Anyway, back to the Tau. For me, the Markerlights best ability is no line of sight required to fire the GM's which allows for Sustain fire from behind cover (no need to pop up). The +1 is nice but not the most important feature of ML's. Your idea is interesting but that would make GM's AT7+ when fire unguided. That seems a little extreme.

If Turrets are changed to normal units with Scout and Fearless (with no ZOC) then they could only be deployed on the Tau half of the board. This would certainly reduce their effectiveness (plus remeber that taking a formation of turrets is one less combat capable Support Group available). If the Tau want to light up the enemies deployment zone they would have to include other ML units in the army and be able to move them into position.

There must be a fair playable solution to this...

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Frankly i see no need to keep the turrets at all. MLs should be about tactical manouver, not just getting cheap, unbreakable formations that stop the opponent going into areas of the board.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Guys, if we go with this suggestion then GMs can only be fired at targets which are Markerlit. So ignore the bonusses etc and roll the whole lot up into the weapon stats. This makes things a whole lot simpler - either the target is markerlit and you can shoot GMs, or it is not and you cannot use GMs.

This does then put greater emphasis on the Tau using Drones, Turrets and 'forward position' troops to allow the missiles to shoot, but that is the whole idea. It is not as if they do not have other weapons, but these ought to be effective at shorter ranges (45cm max).  

Assuming a player puts emphasis on this strategy, the game would then go through several phases of trying to establish/prevent Markerlight enabling lon-range shooting; medium range firing; and then firefights.

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Ginger & Zombo, while I applaud your input, I don't applaud your proposals.

In your own words Ginger, you've had very little experience vs Tau and all these proposals do is severely weaken a fragile army. Suggesting changes when you haven't really experienced the list to a large degree is a little worrying to me if your proposals get through.

Currently the +1 bonus is barely worth bothering about

This shows, to me at least, that you've had very little experience with Tau yourself, Zombo. Am I correct? I only say this because as Hena pointed out, it makes a quite a difference. Plus, if they aren't much to worry about why are you arguing ML/GMs are too powerful???

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Hi Dobbsy, you may have noted that the suggestions I have put forward followed the narrative provided by others (LiTS and Jstr9 for example) or amplified what others have already said (Neal H on the complexities). Equally, many posters seem to prefer this use of Markerlight to be linked to GMs only - not Railguns and Ion stuff which are equally long ranged - so its not as if you cannot still shoot, just not as effectively.

Furthermore, its not as if there are not a reasonable number of units with Markerlight that can be moved into position - Piranhas and Tetras, or even Tiger Sharks for example. As Zombo points out, you can still use the long range GMs where the enemy is markerlit; the whole point being that you need to get the relevant formations out there to do the job. (My suggestion here would be that all these formations ought to be allowed to carry drones / turrets which can be dropped off at the end of a move, permitting the Tau to retain and shoot with the relevant support groups while the lighter craft scurry back under cover.)

Finally I might add that there seems to be a reasonable body of opinion that wants to tone down the Moray / Manta. Requiring the target to be markerlit in order to gain full fire effect would seem to be a nice compromise to satisfy both those who want to keep the full effect and those who want it toned down.  

However, the main issue as I see it is not the details, but rather the different views that people have on the way the Tau operate in principle. Perhaps you could outline how you see them working, so we can flesh out your ideas and build on them as well.

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Shouldn't the Manta have a markerlight?

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IMHO 'toning down the Moray/Manta' and 'fix the GMs' are both part of a problem that the community is finding with the NetEA list: The list is very 'point and click'.

What I mean by this is that the list promotes strategies that are in general simple, straightforward, and require no little-to-no planning.

Want to create a GM horde?
Take lots of (Made up) GM-firing tanks/WE's and then add your nigh-free markerlight drones. Point-and-click to kill any targets that dare approach you.

Want to alpha strike your enemy's important units?
Point and click with a Moray. The enemy can't hide, and until the Moray moves forwards it can't be shot at by most armies.

Want to use some aircraft?
Your aircraft are the best in the game...

...etc.

People are not only complaing about list balance (Although the list is undoubtedly a bit over-strong), they're also complaining that the list's style of play is overly-simplistic, as compared to the usually-complex gameplay of Epic.

Irrespective of balance, playing against the NetEA Tau sometimes feels like the Tau player has turned on 'simple mode'.

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E&C - I'm begging you, please mate, stop making comment about made up units, it really undermines your arguments and obviously is not having any effect on the units that are staying in the list.
There really is no need to keep mentioning it... Pretty please  

add your nigh-free markerlight drones

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I didn't say they worked well, I said they weren't overpowered. Deathstrikes aren't really overpowered, that doesn't mean they work well. It's quite possible for a rule to not be overpowered, but be detrimental to the playstyle of the list.

Your point about attacking the Tau on their terms is precisely my point. Tau, currently, are a gunline. Gunlines are part of a rock/paper/scissors system. Gunlines beat slow and hard, slow beats fast, fast beats gunline.

X>Y>Z>X

40k is a rock/paper/scissors game, as increasingly is Warhammer Fantasy. Most Epic lists aren't, they reward tactics instead of just list construction. Gunlines don't.

Most of my suggestions are coming from a viewpoint of altering the playstyle of the Tau list to make it more accurate to the background and more fun to play with and against, not just about balancing the list.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Why does it undermine my argument?

I honestly think that the development of the NetEA Tau list has been somewhat gratuitous in nature, gradually filling in every hole with brilliant new units until the list is left with no weaknesses; I believe the list would be more balanced with several of those units either toned down or removed.

Should I be gagged for saying so?  

and until the Moray moves forwards it can't be shot at by most armies

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Well I'd just like to say none of my games with Tau have been in "simple mode". Almost every game I've played has been close and I had to think my arse off not to get spanked. For example, my last game vs the Knightworld list saw me fight to turn 4 and I only just took the win - versus a 1st time Epic player btw...

Standing back in a gunline only lasts 1-2 turns at most with a smart player. And then you have to hope you hit with a lot of weapons and hope they fail their saves.... Almost every game I've played has had this outcome.

Where you were playing with knights that had RA4+ plus an extra 4+ save at all times, and knights could apparently close combat skimmers...

...and you still won!    

(I'm kidding!)

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