Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 209 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 14  Next

Tau beefs, discussion

 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:38 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
Well technically it takes one good hit followed by a critical...  :p

On changing the weapons what would knocking down the range do to it? Make spacecraft a necessity and therefore give marines a chance turn 1? :)




_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:05 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Well technically it takes one good hit followed by a critical

A touch pedantic there, TRC but when I said "one good hit" I meant the same thing.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:34 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
Hey dobbsy.
Like I said before, it's not much fun to line up against a Warlord (unless you're set up to beat one). It's not much fun to line up against 3 squads of Terminators (unless you're set up to beat them).
I do understand the points being raised but I don't think they are a good enough reason to scrap a unit (as some want) or the ability (as others want with always popped up).

The Moray must stay in the list (for the reasons you discribed) but a small change to the stats is probably necessary (reduction in range on Railguns seems the best option as per TRC's suggestion). The range reduction could be attributed to the steeper angle of attack (so to speak) from higher flying units.
Reducing the number of Railguns on the Moray will simply end up in it never being used, not the solution.

I'll point out that a Moray almost always has to move, as the stats are now, to hit a unit of value from the opposition. Reducing the Railgun range will make this even more likely and hopefully draw the Moray into range of effective return fire (assuming it survives to get some shots off). This isn't really an issue for me. Morays are often the first unit to activate for the Tau because they are the biggest target (in this they are just like Deathstrikes, which are actually the very definition of point and click... much more so than Morays) aswell as a useful attack unit.

Tau air power is not dependable enough to be effective anti-WE and it will be even weaker if the stats are reduced (something I agree with). The Manta is quite expensive (and again, could be weaker if some get their way) and to be forced to take one every game is not really the solution. The Hero used to be a no brainer (ability to put blast markers on 4 different formations  :sus: ) but that has been reduced (quite rightly).




_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:55 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
The moray has nearly twice the firepower of a shadowsword, plus the ability to ignore line of sight for barely more in cost. It needs radical changes in stats or removal entirely.

It's unfair, unfun and unofficial.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:09 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
The moray has nearly twice the firepower of a shadowsword, plus the ability to ignore line of sight for barely more in cost. It needs radical changes in stats or removal entirely.

It's unfair, unfun and unofficial.


True. And it's almost twice the cost as well... Ignoring line of sight works both ways there Zombo - it's a pro AND a con.

I agree it needs adjustment in stats. Removal should not happen.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:12 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
For a unit with a 75cm range, DC3 and a decent enough save, no LOS is far more of an upside than a downside.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:59 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
no LOS is far more of an upside than a downside

Try saying that when you face 3 shadowswords with 90cm ranges.... I'm pretty sure I know the outcome of that one. And no, to those of you who would most likely give me the maths of this, I don't want a lesson thanks - it was a rhetorical statement.

Anyway, all this academic. They need a weapon stat reduction in lieu of Support craft staying as is.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:47 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
What dobbsy said.

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:43 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
Yes, tis semantics. With a shorter range and similar firepower I would always drop them from a Hero, getting round the range problem (and most incoming fire hopefully!).


Any comparison to Shadowswords is just probability currently. You have a greater chance of going first. Each shadowsword will on average do 5/6's of a point of damage (5/6 to hit, average 2tk, 4+ save), while in return if the SS is in the open and unmarked a Moray will get (assuming an advance or planetfall) 1 and 5/12 hits (going down to 1 and 1/24 if the SS is in cover) all of which just reinforces the who goes first aspect, with co-ord fire reinforcing the Tau if they go first.

Of course Guard armies don't field 3 separate SS but a company and here if the Tau go first its a expensive loss for them with no way of hiding!

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:01 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:36 pm
Posts: 653
Plus IG  (and Siegers, by extension) have the ideal tools to counter Morays, many other armies don´t and are seriously out of luck when the Morays start shooting stuff that can´t be hidden.

Constantly picturing SSwords and Deathstrikes vs Morays is a red herring IMO. They need to be balanced against all types of opponents.




_________________
Visit www.epic-battles.de the ultimate german epic site&forum!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:29 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
Support craft are the very definition of point and click gameplay, especially with the over-long ranges they currently have. They almost never have to move at all, which makes very little sense.

Emphasis added

This is an area I tend to (everyone gasp) agree with Zombocom on, although our solutions are quite different.  I believe that the low number of Support Craft in Epic don't make for a point-and-click gameplay.  Using the Dark Eldar as an example, every games that I have played or read batreps on that involved the Executor were hard fought.

So what are the differences between the DE support craft and the Tau support craft?
In general terms:
DE have shorter ranges
DE have less armament
DE have more cargo capacity
DE are more fragile
DE have worse critical
DE are less expensive (than a Manta, 750 vs 850)

The support craft obviously have an appeal to a large number of people who play Epic and it seems that if a correction can be made to the stats or points or both then that is what should be done for the Tau support craft.  IMO the ranges and armament should be reduced, adjust the price if necessary (which it may not be), and see how they play.

EDIT
I forgot to mention, the problems with the Tau army in general tend to over-magnify supposed support craft issues.  The whole Tau army tends to be point-and-click since it is a fast, long ranged, skimmer army.  I'm not suggesting it is inappopriately characterized but there are all sorts of issues that need to be resolved with the entire list.  Cybershadow's approach should be the best way to work these problems out... IF he starts with the list org design first.




_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:04 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 06 Oct. 2008, 18:43 )

Yes, tis semantics. With a shorter range and similar firepower I would always drop them from a Hero, getting round the range problem (and most incoming fire hopefully!).

...

all of which just reinforces the who goes first aspect, with co-ord fire reinforcing the Tau if they go first.

Of course you risk losing a turn of using the Moray if your opponent wins Strategy and brings on their orbital support first (please leave the self dropping Manta out of this comparison - it should probably be the same as all other drop ships).

If Marines win the stategy roll (usually the case) then the 3 squads of Terminators they teleported in are going to destroy everything near them.

If Eldar win (quite likely) then on comes the air power.

Etc...

The who goes first aspect really isn't a useful decider here. Under common conditions, there are activations that will almost always happen. There's nothing wrong with that and it's not a fault of the game. Going first and having certain units available is part of the game.

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:15 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
The who goes first aspect really isn't a useful decider here.


It is a useful thing to consider, because Morays are so hugely powerful that they will nigh-always be your first target if you win the Strategy roll, and if you don't win then the Tau player will activate them first to nuke your vulnerable targets.

You have to deal ith the Morays first, because they're too powerful to leave alone.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:36 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 06 Oct. 2008, 22:15 )

The who goes first aspect really isn't a useful decider here.


It is a useful thing to consider, because Morays are so hugely powerful that they will nigh-always be your first target if you win the Strategy roll, and if you don't win then the Tau player will activate them first to nuke your vulnerable targets.

You have to deal ith the Morays first, because they're too powerful to leave alone.

See Deathstikes, etc.

It's the same and it isn't game breaking.

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau beefs, discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:39 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
Quote: (Onyx @ 06 Oct. 2008, 15:04 )

Of course you risk losing a turn of using the Moray if your opponent wins Strategy and brings on their orbital support first (please leave the self dropping Manta out of this comparison - it should probably be the same as all other drop ships).

Something to consider - spaceships are assigned in order of strategy rating, no rolls involved.

Spacecraft operations must be planned well in advance, and because of this any spacecraft models must be set up right at the start of the battle before any ground units are deployed. If both players have spacecraft, they should take turns in setting them up, starting with the player with the higher strategy rating.
snip
You may choose any turn, from the first turn onwards. However, you may not choose a turn that has already been taken by another spacecraft, and no more than one spacecraft can travel over the battlefield on the same turn.


They, or you, pick a turn and once a turn is taken you can't say you come down then as well. So marines say turn one, you have to pick turn 2. In that situation no doubt you just deploy on the table.

So in practice you have to watch out for Eldar, Marines and Chaos Marines. The latter two will be doing drops which though irritating are handily countered by garrisoned overwatch. Eldar are just irritating and I hate it when they have a dragonship turn 1.

If Marines win the stategy roll (usually the case) then the 3 squads of Terminators they teleported in are going to destroy everything near them.

If Eldar win (quite likely) then on comes the air power.

Both of those are not ideal examples as both have highly effective counter measures. The comparison is of course with artillery and deathstrikes, both of which have certain weaknesses.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 209 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 14  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

cron

Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net