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Tau vs Imperial Guard, 3k

 Post subject: Tau vs Imperial Guard, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:39 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ 23 Sep. 2008, 11:08 )

I'm thinking that from practical reasons always popped up means that Moray cannot hide, merely that it's targets can. On game it was a lot harder to hide Moray. I did try to do it but failed after several attempts

This is my thinking as well. In theory, "Always popped up" allows both the Support Craft and its targets to hide. In practice, only the targets get to hide. The net effect is a downgrade in SC shooting.


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 Post subject: Tau vs Imperial Guard, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:42 pm 
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As an aside I gather from the report that a Moray took hits from a death strike and survived. How did this happen? Did Asaura roll one or two on his variable damage? I would have thought the a Moray would be easily dropped by a Death Strike Missle.





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 Post subject: Tau vs Imperial Guard, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:58 pm 
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Why did you take the save before rolling damage?





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 Post subject: Tau vs Imperial Guard, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:04 pm 
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Quote: (Jstr19 @ 23 Sep. 2008, 12:58 )

Why did you take the save eore rolling damage?

I assume that they were following the same proceedure as with Eldar Holofields, make save first and then roll for damage if the shot gets through.

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 Post subject: Tau vs Imperial Guard, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:33 pm 
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Hena, there's no FAQ, but there are the rules... :)

"The deflector will save on a 4+ against weapons with the Titan Killer ability (roll for variable damage first and then save against each hit separately, as attacks might be only partially deflected)"

We played it wrong. The Moray should've been toast.


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 Post subject: Tau vs Imperial Guard, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:36 pm 
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I'd like to see more games with Tau or Dark Eldar that use the always-popped-up method.  My gut tells me it is going to lead to something goofy that we haven't discussed but I'll let the games speak for themselves.  I'm glad somebody is finally testing it instead of just talking about it.  Thanks for the info, guys.

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 Post subject: Tau vs Imperial Guard, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:22 pm 
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Sorry, I forgot to take picture ...

If you could insert a picture later Hena, I would appreciate it.

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 Post subject: Tau vs Imperial Guard, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:34 pm 
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Quote: (Onyx @ 23 Sep. 2008, 09:38 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 23 Sep. 2008, 15:55 )

I've seen nothing here (or anywhere else on these forums) to convince me that the extra mucking about is worth it.


Morays are overpowered nonesense.

Your opinion...

Not backed up by gaming experience (my and others, as this batrep proved).

Backed up by multiple dozens of games played against Morays, actually.

They are frustrating to play against and utterly point-and-click in application.

I apologise for the overly-dramatic words, but not the sentiment behind them.




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 Post subject: Tau vs Imperial Guard, 3k
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:29 am 
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I think everyone has to agree the lack of finesse with it. You have are you in range or not, who goes first and how high do you roll. Terrain is secondary! Having lots does remove a lot of EpicA's complexities from the games!

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 Post subject: Tau vs Imperial Guard, 3k
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:50 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 24 Sep. 2008, 02:34 )

Quote: (Onyx @ 23 Sep. 2008, 09:38 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 23 Sep. 2008, 15:55 )

I've seen nothing here (or anywhere else on these forums) to convince me that the extra mucking about is worth it.


Morays are overpowered nonesense.

Your opinion...

Not backed up by gaming experience (my and others, as this batrep proved).

Backed up by multiple dozens of games played against Morays, actually.

They are frustrating to play against and utterly point-and-click in application.

I apologise for the overly-dramatic words, but not the sentiment behind them.

Well I've used them in dozens of games myself and found them not to be overpowered nonsense.

In the batrep here they would've been in even more trouble if the Deathstrike had been used correctly.

I'm not basing my opinions on this one batrep. I've used Morays many times and I don't believe the added complexity of always popped up is worth it. I don't want to playtest this particular rule because my gaming time is limited and my opponents don't have a problem dealing with Morays.
Mark_logue dealt with them quite easily in a recent game (breaking one with Fire Prisms - which stayed broken all game - and outmaneuvering the other). They are high flying bullseye targets that are very useful until they are broken, destroyed. Nothing wrong there.

Point and click - what, you mean like a Deathstrike. (before comments are made about Deathstrikes, I know they are a 1 shot wonder but Morays cost more and cannot hide)
Bad luck if you find it frustrating to playing against... What has that got to do with anything?

I apologise for the overly-dramatic words, but not the sentiment behind them aswell (and I'm certainly not taking it personally and I hope you aren't either E&C).

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 Post subject: Tau vs Imperial Guard, 3k
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:09 pm 
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An oblique question :- What is it that makes EPIC "Fun"?


I played a game with TRC last night, BL Vs IG as it happens. Was trying out some ideas that failed miserably. Fortunately we were proxying stuff, otherwise I can imagine being more than a bit miffed at having spent time and effort in modeling something, setting up a battle etc, putting the models on the table for all of 5 minutes during which they did nothing except getting hit by Deathstrikes and dying. The problem in my army was that I did not have an effective counter to the Vultures / Deathstrikes / Warhound formations in that particular IG army (though I could have done).

I am hearing a similar kind of debate here where certain units in the Tau (and elsewhere) have a similar 'point-and-click' feel to them, resulting in the complete destruction of opposing formations, unless that opponent has one of the (usually limited) counters available, in this case some form of long-range, high damage shooting capability.

===================

The issue here (and many of the other threads) is the general tendency for units that are both increasingly powerfull that have fewer defences against them, which IMHO both reduces the tactical element and the "fun" in the game, and ultimately which turns people off playing. Note, that line between good and 'Over The Top' (OTT) is often small and hard to define.

As in the BL list, I suspect that the problem with the Tau in general and the Moray in this discussion is in the combination of several factors and abilities that taken separately are sensible. Here it is :-
- Superb shooting (Unlimited, good range, 3+ to hit and lots of dice)
- Resilient (DC3 and 'shielded')
- Support craft 'Removes cover' (ie you cannot hide behind hills etc)
- Skimmer (limiting the formations that can hurt it)
- Good availability (300 points in air section, but otherwise unlimited)
So, in summary, while the Moray is effectively the "Warhound" of the Tau list, it is harder to attack, more resilient and better armed for only 25 points more.

===================

Some suggestions:-
1) Reduce the number of "shots" available to the Moray, and/or reduce their chance to hit. While the Tau lack 'artillery' in general, they do have a lot of formations that fill in, so in general these should either be very accurate but limited spread effects, or general spread, but limited damage. This point is also linked to an extent with both the "markerlight" and "Drone" debates elsewhere in terms of accuracy and BM placement.

2) Reduce the range of the weapons slightly (to 60cm and 45 cm) the better to reflect the notion that these craft are hovering thousands of feet in the air. (This follows the same logic applied to aircraft in the game where the ranges of related weaponry is similarly reduced.)

3) Increase their cost to reflect the number of additional boosts they have over similar units elsewhere.

4) Make them slightly more vulnerable to counter-measures - perhaps DC2, or indeed make it a general condition of a critical hit that the Tau 'shield' system fails.

5) Reduce (or remove) the effect of "Support craft" allowing targets more defence. While I like the concept, the rule is essentially an ad-mix of "flier" and "Skimmer", and while I know there was much effort and debate on it, I can't help feeling uneasy about the way this ability impacts the game when combined with other abilities.

Etc

===================

In summary, it is suggested that we need to find ways to tone down this particular unit (and others generally in various lists) so that it does not impact the game quite as much, allowing the opponent to do more than waste a lot of time, effort and money creating formations and armies that spend little actual time on the table.

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