So what it seems to do is allow enemy to hide from Moray instead of allowing Moray to hide much. Though different use of terrain is needed to determine that.

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Why can't the Moray hide by huging a building or other terrain feature? Despite it being bigger it should be as easy to hide as a formation of tanks or infantry.

The "always popped up" rule did have the desired effect in this game, at least to some degree. As Hena mentioned, I specifically moved the Vultures behind a building so as to hide from incoming fire, both from the Moray and from the Hammerheads.

That makes it sound like it is entirely possible for a formation to be out of sight of the Moray but still being able to see and shoot it. Surely LOS must be the same for shooter and shootee (is that a word?)

Jstr19, that is happening all the time with skimmers. That´s more or less the intent of normal popping-up ... you pop down after shooting, hiding from the enemy. You can use Overwatch to interfere with this.

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Yes, but the Moray can't hide. It doesn't have the option of poping down as Hena said. What the always popped up rule allows is for people to hide from the Moray or Manta without giving anything to the supportcraft to counter this. A Leman Russ company 5 cm from a building can't be seen by a Moray 6cm from the building, but they can sustain and shoot the Moray because it is still considered to be above the level of the building. To me this still doesn't seem the answer but I will reserve judgement till I have had the chance to test it a few times.

OK. I didn't get that from your previous post. If this is the case I am fine with the rule. It essentially makes other units skimmers in relation to tracing LOS to support craft.

All to hard...

This is just adding another layer of complexity to what should be a simple game. Always popped up may be a more realistic rule but it is not a game friendly rule.

I've seen nothing here (or anywhere else on these forums) to convince me that the extra mucking about is worth it.

Keep It Simple Silly.

So much fuss when we've seen in this game (and my own experience), Morays are so easy to break (actually easier if present Support Craft rule in use - they can't hide). Manta's are harder but then for 850pts I want a monster.

Steve.

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I've seen nothing here (or anywhere else on these forums) to convince me that the extra mucking about is worth it.

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Morays are overpowered nonesense.

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Actually, we played this game with the "always popped up" downgrade on the Moray. There are two factors here:

1) "Always popped up" is clearly less powerful than the 4.3.3 Support Craft rule.

2) "Always popped up" seems to be difficult. People in this thread are confused and it was not immediately clear to us in the game, and we're both veteran rulesmongers. This may or may not be a real problem.

I'm well aware what rules were used during this game and they do prove that even when Always popped up, they are easily broken (my point) as in your battle.

1 - Always popped up is'nt clearly less powerful than Support Crafty - Support Craft veicles CANNOT hide, Always popped up can hide (in certain situations).

2 - "Always popped up seems to be difficult" (Too difficult to be useful as a proposed, uneeded, nerf for Support Craft).

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