Fair enough I can see that.


I also brought this up on DSs proxy thread.  Currently you can arm a minoris with a Chainfist.   Perhaps specifying that the Battle Titan weapon needs to have a ranged attack would be good?

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Yes, I really like the list. There is enough variation from the IG list to make them feel different, which is a good thing. However, I haven't played enough games yet to experiment with everything on the list. I'm not crazy about the Forge Knight, but since I was outvoted on the Knight issue I won't complain about it.

Good point about Praetorians; they are undercosted.

As for the Minoris, a chainfist (and power fist) might be odd, but arming one with a Laser Burner seems perfectly fine.

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Hena, I understand the point that the "control" restriction is lifted during an assault and only re-imposed after the assault has ended. However, you seem to be wanting to have two conditions as you also said you and Jaldon came to the conclusion that after movement, removing the entire formation which had lost its Synapses was too harsh.

The actual wording in V9.0 specifies the removal of the fomation which is "out-of-control" either at the end of movement or the end of the assault.
During the Action Phase, a synapse swarm is treated like a normal formation. However, all Brood creatures must stay within control range of Synapse creatures of the swarm. If a swarm finds itself "out of formation" (either normal coherency, see EA1.7.4, or control range), the portion with the least Synapse creatures is removed. The only exception to staying in control range is during assaults: only normal coherency must be adhered to, though once the assault is over both normal coherency and control range must be maintained.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Also read the in-depth discussion around this here

In summary this discussion revolves around the assault and the temporary suspension of the "control" rule. This allows a 'Nid swarm to send brood creatures off in an assault, but requires that they attempt to regain "Control" aftwerwards; removing any brood creatures that remain out-of-control at the end of the assault. The question around all the synapse creatures being killed is raised but not really answered in a simple 'Yes' or 'No' answer because the discussion is around sending brood creatures out of control during an assault. So, at the end of the thread Jaldon discusses this and says that the entire swarm is removed where all synapses are killed. Yet he also goes on to suggest that it is unlikely, because the Synapse creatures will remain outside the assault 'zone' (so are unlikely to be killed) and also that it seems unreasonable to remove brood creatures where there are other synapse creatures nearby. We obviously need a clear statement at the end of the paragraph on "Control" to cover this point.

However, the discussion does not seem to consider what happens if the swarm started without any Synapse creatures (except in passing at the start by saying that they are mindless). Here, IMO we need some statement on swarms that exist without any synapses to communicate the hive mind to them. Being mindless does not stop them acting on instinct, so I see no reason to stop a 'mindless' swarm from assaulting - indeed I would actually suggest that it is possibly more likely, the Hive mind usually imposing a restraint on the broods instincts. I do have more of a problem with a 'leaderless' swarm making a 'controlled' activation because it is more out of character. So the only question seems to be whether or not we allow the 'leaderless' swarm to attempt to get back into control under a different synapse. Perhaps the following covers both points:-
"An unbroken swarm without any synapse creatures that is within range of any enemy must attempt to assault the nearest, otherwise it must be activated last (after all other activations have been made) and will attempt to march towards the nearest swarm containing Synapse creatures."

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

And it is this "duality" that causes problems. I can understand the concept that the 'out-of-control' brood creatures are lost after an assault because they are still chasing after food, but if that is the case, why allow them to consolidate back at all?

If this consolidation is because the brood creatures also have an instinct for survival and actively seek to be controlled as part of the collective mind - then why not allow them to seek out other synapses that are in "control" range.

Finally, could you (or Jaldon) explain why these 'out-of-control' formations need to be removed at this point at the end of the assault rather than leaving it to the end of turn

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

The biggest problem I have with it is brood creates can be completely dispersed by token assaults.

You could loose all your synapse (ya ya be careful with them, but lets say you get unlucky with a save) and still be unbroken.  A 100 point formation could assault them, loose, and all the brood creatures would be removed.

Normally anything broken that looses an assault is completely removed, I just don't see why we need to have this extra condition on the 'nids. What kind of abuse do you think would come about if brood creatures weren't removed after an assault with no synapse?

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Squats 2019-10-17

This is the main reason why I do not like the idea of removing the Brood creatures mid-turn. IMHO Synapse creatures ought to be leading the charge as they are just about as mindless as the Brood, but a bit larger with bigger teeth and claws. They should not be cowering at the back trying to stay alive!

More importantly, the swarm represents a part of the battlefield that the enemy should not be able to cross without getting bitten irrespective of whether it contains a Synapse or not. Even if it is broken, a formation still exerts a ZoC on that part of the battlefield, and IMO this should be equally true for Tyranids even if their Synapse has been killed. After all, the swarm will disappear in the End of turn phase.

What is the problem with allowing the possibility that another Synapse moving into "control" the now leaderless swarm? (I am assuming that the bugs are not allowed to move twice before that hoary chestnut is raised).

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The main issue IMO is that the basic assault rules do not model the Tyranid behaviour well. I see the Synapse creatures overriding the normal Brood instincts of 'fight or flight', but being able to send them off on a hunt. Once 'out-of-control' I would expect victorious  creatures to follow any broken troops eating all the while, or to 'run back to momma' if they lost; and write the special rules accordingly.  (so getting double hack-downs if still in contact after following the enemy a double move but then being removed as dead/lost/gone-to-ground, or running back in the direction they came from and restricting the withdrawal move of the Synapse accordingly).

I would then leave the critters on the table until the end of the turn when they get removed if they have not come under the control of another Synapse.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

I think you missed my point here Hena - I agree that broods should not be allowed to move twice, and that re-organising only happens in the end-phase. Given that the swarms have all activated etc what is the problem with waiting until the End-of-turn phase and only checking for "Control" at that point, removing any 'leaderless' broods then.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

What Ginger asked.

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Squats 2019-10-17

Sorry Folks been far away working, but I am back for a bit, but again will be leaving.

Real Quick Answers.......

NO ONLY the Dominatrix is an SC, no Hive Tyrant SCs. I may consider down the road a Vit SC, but not right now.

A Swarm that has lost all of its Synapse Creatures but has not yet activated can still activate. What constitutes the composition of the swarm is determined at the END of the turn and remains in effect throughout the next turn.

However, once activated, or engaged in an assault, a swarm without Synapse Creatures is in BIG TROUBLE because it MUST end its action both in Coherancy AND Synapse or brood creatures are removed as per rule EA 1.7.4.

My first piece of advice is don't get the Synapse Creatures killed, failing that use the activation to get as many of the brood creatures into another Synapse Creatures coherancy as possible.

Hope this answers the question........

The Bad news, I leave Nov 28th out over the big blue again for a minimum of 7 months to a maximum of over a year. I will be bouncing around islands so land line communication may happen from time to time. I will checkin whenever I can. However I feel the list is shaping up well, and is going to be left in very capable hands.

Thanks All

Jaldon

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Tyranid AC