To sumarise, I think we agree that

• Units with Jump packs cannot choose to fight as they want. Jump pack is just a means of movement.
• WE can elect to choose to fight CC or FF but may only allocate hits accordingly.
• Skimmers can choose to fly off the ground and force the opponent to fight with FF.

The perenial question is if the opponent is also skimmers, why can't they climb right up and re-engage in CC.

Moscovians suggestion is that where there is a Skimmer vs Skimmer engagement and one side chooses to fight FF, the other side should be allowed to fight CC. So each side gets to choose the most appropriate fighting value.

Apart from the insane difficulties of actually getting physically close enough to another flying machine that is behaving erratically, I think one point that has been missed is that the skimmer rule actually imposes FF on the enemy unit by choosing to get of the ground. In this, I think Hena has got it right, where he suggests that it is going to be virtually impossible to get close enough to an enemy that is moving around and actively trying to avoid you.

The other problem I have with the proposal is that it is not logical - either the two units are using CC values because they are B-B, or they are using the FF values because they are separate. Allowing a mixture is saying that they are simultaneously B-B and separate which is a nonsense.

As Greg said in the thread, Skimmer Vs Skimmer can use CC values if they both want to, but if one or other chooses to fight at a distance, then both have to use FF. I must say I do not see the problem with this approach.

Furthermore, if you want to restrict the Tau units, make them 'Jump pack' rather than 'skimmer' and the units can be then caught by assaulters.

(my two penneth as they say)

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

HI!

What i see as a typical firefight is for example a dogfight between two aircraft (not necessarily modern aircraft with missiles from 40km away, rather WW2 style).

So imagine a Spitfire fighting against an aircraft from the Luftwaffe. And now try to tell me how by any means possible one of the pilots could get close enough for a "CC" attack, let alone ram the other aircraft. No way in hell (unless, as i stated, the other pilot was extremely stupid or asleep)...

ah and about the eldar jetbike thingies (whatever they're called) - remember the Messerschmitts, with the first jet engine. I remember they had quite a hard time, because being so fast they always zipped past the enemy.
Ok Eldar have more advanced technology and maneuverability, but still have to (as was written above) follow the laws of physics.

cheers,

So if the SKimmer can just fly away to prevent CC why can't bikers turn and run or jump troops leap away and force a running firefight?

Why can't you just turn and run the other direction when Orks charge you and kite them?

The only thing preventing that is 'because we say so'

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he suggests that it is going to be virtually impossible to get close enough to an enemy that is moving around and actively trying to avoid you

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I beg to differ.

Aerial ambush tactics like attacking out of the sun or sneaking up on enemy aircraft were commonplace in WW2.

With regards to Epic, I could envision Shining Spears forcing CC on anyone, but am not sure otherwise. If it is just this single case, why bother?

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Moscovian's suggestion is perfect! It's an exact replication of two skimmers/jump packers swirling round each other in a cascade of death, partly in FF and sometimes in CC.

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Which was in turn countered by new tactics (NOE) and technology (Stealth).

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Heh.  You say that, but just a few posts after yours, Scarik used exactly the same points to call the existing rule goofy.

The CC-skimmers get their choice.  The FF-skimmer get their choice.  The assault simulates the 'dogfight' that everyone keeps bringing up.  There are no extra steps and nothing new to keep track of.  If you read the old thread Greg was still commenting on the 'compexity' of my proposal when there simply was none - he never got it.

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Neal

Ok, the point that Moscovian keeps raising is that combat values are an abstraction in E:A. For example, CC values could represent fighting up to 50 yards from an opponent, while FF values might represent combat as close as 20 yards - thus there could be an overlap allowing both sides to fight in the most appropriate way which would be represented by allowing each to use the best value, either CC or FF.

While that sounds attractive, this opens the door to applying the same logic to all combats on the ground or in the air; which is evidently an absurdity. The whole point of having different CC and FF values is that one is worse than the other, which puts one side or the other at a disadvantage. This is why you cannot have combats with mixed FF and CC values in this system.

However, several people have alluded to combat initiative - where the attacker determines the kind of combat that will take place. So, how about this as a concept (the words will need tidying up) :-
When attacked, Skimmers may always choose to use their firefight value in an assault, even if there are enemy units in base contact with the skimmer. This represents the skimmer lifting off the ground out of reach of enemy ground units. When initiating the assault (even against other Skimmers), a Skimmer can declare the kind of combat that will take place (Close Combat or Fire Fight) which represents the advantage of surprise etc. In either case, the enemy must also use the relevant Close Combat or Fire Fighting values.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Exactly the point.  The rules are made to flow smoothly and provide an entertaining game, not provide maximum simulation in all cases.  It's a fully arbitrary decision as to where the gameplay/simulation dividing line is drawn.  The decision was made to go with the simple "skimmers can get away, ground troops can't" as the rule and that decision is entirely subjective.

You're absolutely correct that there's nothing to stop us from creating a rule that breaks that down further.

So, my question is the reverse of yours.  Why would moving the arbitrary line to allow jump packs and skimmers to CC each other be an improvement?  Is there anything in that justification that would allow drawing an arbitrary line between skimmer tactics and a whole host of maneuver and speed-based options for every unit?

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Neal

(Moscovian slowly creeps away from Scarik, disavowing any association with him)  

...As I was saying, CC anf FF are abstract, Ginger.  But I don't necessarily agree that we have to blur the lines between them.  One represents BtB contact, the other does not.  Skimmers can violate this rule because they can lift off the ground as mentioned in the book.  Of course, other skimmers can lift off the ground too and make things difficult for them once more.

While that sounds attractive, this opens the door to applying the same logic to all combats on the ground or in the air; which is evidently an absurdity. The whole point of having different CC and FF values is that one is worse than the other, which puts one side or the other at a disadvantage. This is why you cannot have combats with mixed FF and CC values in this system.

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And what about my suggestion of allowing the initating Skimmer to choose whether to combat will be CC of FF??

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Oh, I forgot about that.  I like it and think it would work fine.  Either suggestion could simply be an FAQ and the RAW could sit as is.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.