The problem, aside from my other issues, is that if one were to make it a paid upgrade then why is it not optional?

I have to admit that I have never played with that rule and have always been having unretained GDs and LDs go back into the warp not to be reused.

Neal, when did the "daemons that aren't retained go back to the Daemon Pool" rule get added?

Was that later on in the Summoning Rules changes?

I have to admit that I have never played with that rule and have always been having unretained GDs and LDs go back into the warp not to be reused.

Part of the problem of playing so many iterations of the list but I'm curious if you recall when we added that?

Given the power of the LD, I do wonder if the GD is actually worth it on the current costings. Especially as, if you only throw a total of '6' (and assuming you have sufficient LDs) 6x Khorne LDs give you 12 assault dice, while the GD only gets 6x dice (albeit with instant kills if the TK attacks strike home).

What do you mean by upgrades? The DP replaces a character but you can put multiple character upgrades on a stand so you can add a Champion and an Icon Bearer to a Warlord.

The other characters are optional and most were added as part of the changes to the summoning system and were done a lot later in the development process.

However, I would suggest that they should probably be 50 points each, while the formation costs would drop less; perhaps -25 points to reflect the apparent undercosting at present?

I think many / most poeple have been doing a 'like-for-like' comparison excluding the cost of the character. So it would seem that a true cost comparison for the BL Retinue should be 365 points for 8x marines, 4x Rhinos and a Fearless Warlord compared with 350 points for 6x Space marines, 3x Rhinos and a Commander. This would suggest that while the two costs are comparable, the BL are getting 33% more units and firepower in lieu of TSKNF. Put another way, a BL Retinue of 6x marines and leader is ~270 points. For the Chosen, 4x 'termies' and a Fearless Warlord for 260 points compares with 400 points for 4x Termies and a character (under the new costings).

Are we really suggesting that TSKNF is worth around 2/3 the cost or a regular marine unit (comparing the total costs including transport per infantry stand)? Even if we double the 15% suggested by Neal, that still leaves Retinue and Chosen undercosted as much as 20-30% on paper.

However, allowing for the other in-built list restrictions perhaps a modest 10%-15% increase would not be unreasonable making the bare Retinue 300-325 points, and the chosen 70-75 points each.

My '2 cents' as they say