I use(d) proxies. I am in the process of building actual models using Audrey's instructions but if it hadn't been for the old Chaos Dreads I have I wouldn't have been playing with them.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

In the novel "Dark Apostle" there are eight-legged daemon-engines mentioned which shoot at aircrafts. But no name of them is mentioned.

Quote:
Masive eight-legged daemon engines strained at the chained restraints locking them in place, each infernal machine overseen by a dozen attendants. They roared into the night sky, metallic tendons bulging and blazing comets of deep red fire burst from daemonic hell-cannons built into their carapaces, screaming up towards the Imperial aircraft as they strafed in once more.

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We are returned!
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lol.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Hhmmm, lets see if this works.

Legged AA Machine

Debaser



And thanks to Pulsar for helping me out with posting this picture, for some reason I just can't get pictures to work from the Wiki galleries.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Tim, that's tremendously creepy, though I had to manually use the addy.

And to create AA walkers just take the guns from a Hydra and put some gree stuff legs on it and maybe a head from a chaos 40k or fantasy model.

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Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

There are dramatically more people in the world that don't want to build their own figures than there are that do. TacComms is not the best indication of the inclinations of the average Epic gamer :-)

Those people shouldn't be left out of playing the army simply because they don't want to/don't have the skills to build a Defiler.

If GW or someone else had a good Defiler proxy that one could buy then that would be a different matter

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

There are dramatically more people in the world that don't want to build their own figures than there are that do

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Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

The consideration that something relatively easy to convert is a fair point. That said, I am still pretty keen on a spider-like daemon-engine blowing aircraft out of the air with blasphemous energies.

Therefore, the idea I'm currently playing with might sound somewhat greedy - but why not have both?

A) A thin-armoured fast rhino-based AA tank (probably missile-based) with short ranged, weak but copious AA fire. Negligible conventional combat capabilities.
B) A heavily-armoued, slow, defiler-based AA walker (some exotic weaponry, warpflame or sonic disruptors or something like that) with medium ranged, hard-hitting AA firepower. Fearsome assault capabilities.

As the Black Legion has a limited number of upgrades per formation, we should be able to playtest both units independently and together without a huge amount of combinations.

Still somewhat half-baked, here's what I was thinking:

Rhino-variant - 0-1 per formation, takes up one upgrade slot.
Defiler-variant - Defiler upgrade allows 0-3 defiler variants, either vanilla or AA-variant. So maximum 3 per formation total.

In game terms this means that both fulfil a different secondary battlefield role, and both eat up valuble upgrade slots on the retinues. Both should be priced reasonably high due to the "right tool for the job" flexibility...

In terms of background, the rhino-variant (let's call it a Stalker for the time being) will be an increasingly rare and obsolete AA-tank from the heresy-era which predates the whirlwind (or scavenged and repaired hunters), versetile and fast moving. The defiler variant (which we can call a Debaser or Desecrator for the moment) will be a new creation pioneered by the Black Legion alongside the Defiler to meet the increasing need for flack.

What purpose will Obliterators have in the list if they are stripped of AA?
In my experience Retinues are used, mainly, in 2 ways - as foot-sloggers garrisonned on objectives with Oblits+daemons. They form a solid base and attempt to provide an AA umbrella only moving if an assault target strays too close. They are very effective at this. Alternatively with rhinos, daemons and often a daemon prince as an assault force - often less effective as the Rhinos get shot away.

With the AA vehicles I think the second option would be used more often with the AA rhino but would suffer from the vulnerability of its vehicles, the first option would probably be made even more static as with the AA defiler being, in most foot retinues, the only vehicle, you would have to try and hide it 10cm into cover to preserve it. In Neither option would you ever take Obliterators - in option 2 they are too slow and can't be transported and in option 1 any upgrades would need to be spent on vehicles to try and screen AT shots from the AA vehicle.

The only place where Obliterators would still be a viable unit is with Chosen where you can still teleport it in and use it to provide a persistent thorn in the opponents baseline via its fearlessness - which is precisly where the complaints came from.

Without sacrificing a decent chunks of points on largely ineffective units to protect your AA vehicle - rhinos or in foot retinues dreads+defilers, and even then with little chance of preserving your flak I think that Swiftdeaths will definitely be the AA of choice for the list - which even at the moment has weak AA

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NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

You can't have you cake and eat it as well.

The unit is a problem and it needs to be fixed. Without AA it may in fact need a point reduction but we can test that.

In any case, something has to be done and it appears that the simplest solution that causes the fewest headaches is to take the AA value.

Since that seems to be the core of the problem in most complaints it seems like a good idea to do.

Do you have an alternative change?

And your comments about the perils of AA vehicles is one that almost every list shares. Again, this issue being raised simply points out that the Obliterator is too good of an AA unit

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Lets not rush to price this too high. I'd suggest pricing it similarly to the Hunter and then seeing what happens.

People are often reticent to lower costs but not as reticent to increase them.

I also think that a vehicle based AA unit will get hammered unless screened and there aren't a lot of screening options in the CSM list.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

I like that idea.

One of the fan based chaos lists had the option to mount a Havoc Launcher on a rhino which gave it AA. That sounds a lot like A to me.

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Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

I was under the impression that the complaints about Obliterators were largely about its inclusion in Chosen formations - having a 3+RA fearless AA unit on your baseline - though in my experience the success of such units is very mixed.

I'm perfectly prepared to test these changes all I was doing was pointing out the possible issues - that you will  be taking very vulnerable flak and compromising your formation to do so and to try and protect it.

To suggest that is the same for other races is wrong-
Orks - flakwagons - superior to gunwagons and can be hidden in vehicle units
IG, LatD- taken as own formation or hidden behind other vehicles - Chimeras, LR, SHTs - in the case of Mech.CO also provide firepower.
Eldar - can be hidden in vehicle formations
tau - hidden in vehicle formations or as an upgrade without compromising the effectiveness of mech infantry
In fact the only other main army that has similar problems - where the formation is more effective without vehicles but vehicles have to be taken to protect the AA vehicle is Marines - but even then you aren't having to buy your rhinos and the general style of the list allows a baseline hugging flak unit - which even then doesn't usually have a lot of on-board units to cover.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Without AA Obliterators are now
a)teleportable and Fearless Havocs for Chosen
b)resilient and Fearless Havocs for anyone else (but without the option of transport vehicles)

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Yes... and then being used as effectively invulnerable AA defences.

To suggest that is the same for other races is wrong-

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.