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Plenty questions
rpr
 Post subject: Plenty questions
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:52 pm 
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Some general questions that arose today:

1. hackdown/blast marker extra hits.
Formation with 2 rhinos with 2 units inside each gets 2 hackdowns/blast markers (when broken). Does it lose 2 rhinos
or 1 rhino and one unit inside it? (and then of course in both cases possibly those inside destroyed rhinos)


2. two characters. If unit has a character with leader and character which is SC, what is the latest ruling? Does it get -2 BM/regroup or is it max 1 leader/unit?  (at least SC+leader on same character is just one leader)


3. What if an unit is in enemy ZoC, holds and cannot move out of ZoC? (say a gargant is surrounded - it cannot walk over...)

(as a side-note, in my opinion, if an unit is in enemy ZoC and holds, it should make "engage" without move against that enemy. This of course is rule change, but would make sense)


4. if unit A is in enemy B ZoC,. can it then engage enemy C, then collade with enemy B on its engagement zone and thus force both to same engagement? (why not?)

(as a side-note, in my opinion, counter-charge a) should be against original attacker, and/or if unit A finds itself in zoc of enemy B, they should be in drawn into same engagement, NOT only if they come to base-to-base combat - where does that come?)
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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Plenty questions
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:26 pm 
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(rpr @ Mar. 28 2008,11:52)
QUOTE
1. hackdown/blast marker extra hits.
Formation with 2 rhinos with 2 units inside each gets 2 hackdowns/blast markers (when broken). Does it lose 2 rhinos
or 1 rhino and one unit inside it? (and then of course in both cases possibly those inside destroyed rhinos)

I'd say you can take the hits on any units, including those in rhinos. So, yes, you can take one on the unit inside and one on the rhino. Or you could take both hits on units inside the transports. But if you do take out a transport then any remaining units inside will take hits as normal for a destroyed transport.

2. two characters. If unit has a character with leader and character which is SC, what is the latest ruling? Does it get -2 BM/regroup or is it max 1 leader/unit?  (at least SC+leader on same character is just one leader)

Yep. You only get any given special ability once and that's official (there's a new FAQ up on the rulebook site!)

3. What if an unit is in enemy ZoC, holds and cannot move out of ZoC? (say a gargant is surrounded - it cannot walk over...)
If you can't exit then you MUST charge.

4. if unit A is in enemy B ZoC,. can it then engage enemy C, then collade with enemy B on its engagement zone and thus force both to same engagement? (why not?)
You have to leave B's ZOC or charge B. If you can do the former by charging C, that seems fine - but you should be outside of B's ZOC then anyway. If you can't get out of B's ZOC you're going to have to charge B assuming B is closer to you than C.

(as a side-note, in my opinion, counter-charge a) should be against original attacker, and/or if unit A finds itself in zoc of enemy B, they should be in drawn into same engagement, NOT only if they come to base-to-base combat - where does that come?)
I think that's to prevent people from throwing supporting units too close to the enemy...

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rpr
 Post subject: Plenty questions
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:48 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Mar. 28 2008,19:26)
QUOTE
3. What if an unit is in enemy ZoC, holds and cannot move out of ZoC? (say a gargant is surrounded - it cannot walk over...)

If you can't exit then you MUST charge.


On hold...?


(as a side-note, in my opinion, counter-charge a) should be against original attacker, and/or if unit A finds itself in zoc of enemy B, they should be in drawn into same engagement, NOT only if they come to base-to-base combat - where does that come?)
I think that's to prevent people from throwing supporting units too close to the enemy...

I find this more like a tool to do nasty things when attacking..

(i.e. put one formation within 6cm of the enemy, and then charge from the other side, with 14cm range. The enemy now cannot move closer to your attacker to get more units into FF, allowing very very unsportsmanlike rule trickery clipping)

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Plenty questions
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:10 pm 
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1.  I think you have to take the transport as a hit first.  "Closest to farthest" means you're definitely going to get the vehicle before the units inside.  Other than that, I agree with Lord_I.

2.  Once, as Lord_I said.

3.  I don't think we've ever come up with a good answer on this.  The options are to Engage, even though the unit failed to activate or sit in place even though it's in the ZoC.  Either way, you're breaking a rule.

4.  What Lord-I said.  Leave or charge are the only options allowed under the rules.  As to why, I don't think that was ever considered.  Allowing what would effectively be long-distance intermingling would dramatically drop the screening ability of Scout formations.  Is this more of the "Fearless Scouts" issue?

4 -side-note.  Countercharging the closest assaulting unit was how it was written originally and was eventually changed during playtest because it didn't work.  Support formations can be put ridiculously close to the enemy, where they should rightfully be swamped, but instead they are untouchable.  It is easily abused (especially by small, high-FF formations) and extremely unrealistic.

===

Edit:  It is nasty to close assault with fire support in a crossfire position.  It's not "rules trickery."  It's intentional.  Crossfire at under 250m means a lot of people are going home in body bags.  You don't get to jump up and go running away when it happens.  You're pinned down, just like the rules simulate.

Your opponent outmaneuvered you and you died.

===

Edit-edit:  Example - support at 6cm and assaulter on the other side at 14cm.

Rules as written - Target formation has to stay in place (pinned down) or attempt to counter-assault the closest target.  Assaulting the closest target gives them 1) an actual chance of reaching the enemy if desired, and 2) the possibility of countercharging out of engagement range if the clipping assault if the assaulting formation doesn't commit.

RPR's proposal - Target formation has to stay in place, or get up and charge across a killing zone at a unit 2.5x as far away as the support formation.  In fact, if a unit has enough countercharge distance to engage the support formation, the support formation nonetheless remains completely invulnerable.  You can freely run your IG infantry to 5.x cm away from the Ork Warbikes, secure in the knowledge that no matter what happens, the KoS cannot under any circumstances retaliate in any way when they are assaulted.

I fail to see how that's any less prone to "rules trickery" but it seems quite clear that it's completely unrealistic unless you assume that 1) the commander is daft, and 2) the troops are suicidal.

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Charad
 Post subject: Plenty questions
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:45 pm 
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How about if that counter charge move towards closest unit takes you out from original attackers firefight range? And then there is combat without original attacker at all?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Plenty questions
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:56 pm 
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Good point, Charad.  It's not very common, but it can happen.

With the rules as written, if you countercharge the closer unit, out of the range of the attacking formation, the attack stalls and the attacker loses.  If the attacker doesn't commit sufficiently, he's screwed and the formation breaks.

Or, if the defender has the speed to reach base contact, they have the option of drawing in the support formation and continuing the assault.  The original attacking formation would still be part of the assault but couldn't provide any fire because it's out of range.


OTOH, if the defender can only countercharge the attacker, then there is no possible escape.  The defender is forced to charge blindly at the farthest opponent, with the least likely chance of success, across a kill zone because... why?

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