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[batrep] 2k Necrons vs Marines

 Post subject: [batrep] 2k Necrons vs Marines
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:26 pm 
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(zombocom @ Feb. 10 2008,16:50)
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Interesting, and seemingly a lot tighter than your last report, and following the rules more correctly. Were you playing against yourself again?

Yeah I was playing with myself again (not that way!).


(zombocom @ Feb. 10 2008,16:50)
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One error I noticed was that you had the phased out formations using the Necron rule to bring bases back. This doesn't happen. When they rally off board they lose all blast markers so cannot bring bases back!

Ah right. That would've made the game even easier since the scouts wouldn't have attacked the monoliths as they would've still required 3 blasts to break, monoliths could've killed the BTS with their 8 x 5+ attacks and 2 to 1 outnumbers etc. leaving the main phalanx to break scouts if they ever went to the necron blitz and running the remaining two phalanxes to the warhound leaving nothing to chance. Now you just broke it and there was never any chance for the marines ?:p

Just another brain fart from reading forums and thinking that when auto rally is removed it means they don't remove all blasts either =)





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 Post subject: [batrep] 2k Necrons vs Marines
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:59 pm 
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Crabowl: Again, it's easy to say that in theory, but in practice it doesn't always work out how you expect. Unfortunately this has again reduced the viability of this battle report, as does the fact that you are playing against yourself.

For future reports please make sure you have double checked all the necron rules, use the standard tournament scenario and find someone to play with :)

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 Post subject: [batrep] 2k Necrons vs Marines
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:04 pm 
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I don't see you posting any batreps Zombo, vis yourself or not!

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 Post subject: [batrep] 2k Necrons vs Marines
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:08 pm 
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I didn't say I had?

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 Post subject: [batrep] 2k Necrons vs Marines
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:10 pm 
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ponce. :D

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 Post subject: [batrep] 2k Necrons vs Marines
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:12 pm 
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Hippy! :p

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 Post subject: [batrep] 2k Necrons vs Marines
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:38 pm 
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(zombocom @ Feb. 10 2008,16:59)
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....reduced the viability of this battle report, as does the fact that you are playing against yourself.

...and find someone to play with :)

I beg to differ.  :p  I think playing against yourself is fine provided you are honestly trying your best with both sides.  In fact with the alternating activations epic is quite suited to it, and solo play has the advantage that at least both sides are matched in terms of skill. :)  Also I think it can actually be easier and quicker to try out a lot of theoretical playtest situations that might just be annoying for another player. You don't need two people both with a strong desire to test a situation, only one.

Ideally I would do many solo playtests myself, except that with the time I have available and plenty of opponents I almost always end up just playing another player.

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 Post subject: [batrep] 2k Necrons vs Marines
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:13 am 
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Nice report Crabowl.

Despite the reservations some people have voiced regarding the circumstances of the battle I think it does clearly show one thing.

For an all teleport army waiting till turn 3 before bringing any units on the board seems to be a viable tactic.

That does seem to reduce the game to a bunch of assaults, mainly chosen by the Necron player, on turn 3.  I would tend to agree that this doesn't sound much fun for the Necron's opponent.


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 Post subject: [batrep] 2k Necrons vs Marines
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:33 am 
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Interesting ... the Necron rules seem to be coming along nicely. And interesting use of proxy Necron models. :alien:

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 Post subject: [batrep] 2k Necrons vs Marines
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:51 pm 
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Good batrep overall.  Thanks for posting it.

Crabowl, with the suggested changes to the Necron army (on Wraiths specifically) how do you see that they should be priced?  Corey is looking for feedback on cost and stats.  You may appreciate that since it would take Wraiths out of other formations and make them their own.

An all teleporting army (or drop army) is a pain in the butt for anyone FROM anyone, so this is no big surprise.  It is one of the few things I don't like about the tournament scenario.  Corey pulled a similar maneuver on me at a tournament where he showed up on turn 2.  I played another game with Marines dropping on me on turn 3 and that sucked in a big way.  It is one of those things that is moderate risk for potentially big payoff.  But I don't think it means the Necrons are broken - just the function of having most/all of your army off board that is broken.  Make sense?

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 Post subject: [batrep] 2k Necrons vs Marines
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:56 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Feb. 11 2008,11:51)
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Good batrep overall. ?Thanks for posting it.

Crabowl, with the suggested changes to the Necron army (on Wraiths specifically) how do you see that they should be priced? ?Corey is looking for feedback on cost and stats. ?You may appreciate that since it would take Wraiths out of other formations and make them their own.

They're worth at least 50 in the phalanx without the extra attack. They're much harder to evaluate as a formation since they will totally suck after they've assaulted something (assuming their 'transports' are phased out and the enemy has spare activations nearby - never gonna happen ?:p ). Other thing that makes the evaluation hard is that they can always be sent to the side of the table that has no formations left to FF clip them and/or nothing that can break the monos. If you remove the FF from the equation (they can always reach B-T-B) and compare them to Raptors for example: cost 35, no inv save or fearless, and they have to 'play' on the table allowing the enemy to crush them to pieces even before their first assault. My best guess would be 250 for 6 (assuming they only have one attack) with the option to buy 2 more for ~85. I'm just not too happy to see all fearless formations that can spend the second turn marshalling and repairing to full strength..


(Moscovian @ Feb. 11 2008,11:51)
QUOTE
An all teleporting army (or drop army) is a pain in the butt for anyone FROM anyone, so this is no big surprise. ?It is one of the few things I don't like about the tournament scenario. ?Corey pulled a similar maneuver on me at a tournament where he showed up on turn 2. ?I played another game with Marines dropping on me on turn 3 and that sucked in a big way. ?It is one of those things that is moderate risk for potentially big payoff. ?But I don't think it means the Necrons are broken - just the function of having most/all of your army off board that is broken. ?Make sense?

This is one reason why I'd like to see limitations on the core lists to prevent all thunderhawk, all drop pod, all tellyport, 12 soopagun etc. oddities. Necrons would be about 78 times more fun to play against if monoliths would have to deployed normally and they wouldn't phase out. 'Field repair kits' could be tied to the monolith formations - ie, a phalanx could use two portals to marshall and repair the ranks instead of 'automatically' repairing at the end of the turn. That way the necrons would slowly walk over the table with the monoliths and other portals and they'd feel totally different. This would still require that portal formations couldn't double when they break or it would still be a 2 turn slugfest (maybe they could double only if they can't get out of enemy ZoC with a single move if they're moving - this could apply to all fearless units btw). I know none of the stuff above will ever work like that so it's just a dream.

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 Post subject: [batrep] 2k Necrons vs Marines
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:23 pm 
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they can always be sent to the side of the table that has no formations left to FF clip them

Wraiths don't have FF, Crabowl, so clipping wouldn't be much of a factor.  :)  Your concerns of an all fearless formation regenerating are certainly not overstated, however.  See my notes on the 4.4.1 thread.

This is one reason why I'd like to see limitations on the core lists to prevent all thunderhawk, all drop pod, all tellyport, 12 soopagun etc. oddities.
Agreed it can make for some not-so-fun situations, although I have read how this has backfired on a number of occasions as well.  Either way though it is something best left for the ERC (great... another thing left unresolved for all time).  Scratch that, something best left for Handbook 2009.

Necrons would be about 78 times more fun to play against if monoliths would have to deployed normally and they wouldn't phase out.
I think you are in the minority, here.  Most people like the Necrons playing the way they do and see it matching the fluff and such.  The trick at this point is balancing the list appropriately.  

Question: do you think having the extra Monoliths in the formation overpowered them?  Do you think things would have been closer had the monoliths been limited to Obelisks as reinforcements?

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 Post subject: [batrep] 2k Necrons vs Marines
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:38 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Feb. 11 2008,14:23)
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they can always be sent to the side of the table that has no formations left to FF clip them

Wraiths don't have FF, Crabowl, so clipping wouldn't be much of a factor..

Exactly, they have no FF so they can be easilly clipped assuming the enemy has any formations alive near them. I meant the Raptors with the FF equation - after removing the effects of FF since wraiths can almost always reach B-T-B, their relative costs are easier to compare.


(Moscovian @ Feb. 11 2008,14:23)
QUOTE
Necrons would be about 78 times more fun to play against if monoliths would have to deployed normally and they wouldn't phase out.

I think you are in the minority, here. ?Most people like the Necrons playing the way they do and see it matching the fluff and such. ?The trick at this point is balancing the list appropriately.
I know and I don't mind that they work that way but that just means they will be really hard to balance and probably means more expensive units. It's going to be difficult though since marines are the 'crappiest' overwatch army compared to other armies like IG - infantry company with fire support platoon (350 points) gets to shoot 15 x AP5+ in overwatch instead of marines' 8 plus they have outnumber, commissar, 4 x 4+ and from 9 to 13 x 5+ FF attacks and from 0 to 4 x 6+ CC attacks and would be much harder to crush than the marines just by teleporting next to them. That's why I like to use marines for my first few playtests with any army because they are, well, crap =)


(Moscovian @ Feb. 11 2008,14:23)
QUOTE
Question: do you think having the extra Monoliths in the formation overpowered them? ?Do you think things would have been closer had the monoliths been limited to Obelisks as reinforcements?

Living metal makes them strong (I'm not saying they're overpowered since the monoliths didn't do squat on their own). Without it the warhound and speeders could've at least tried to shoot some of them down but when they require an average of four hits to kill one I'm not going to use speeders on them (average of 0.41 dead monos after advance/in assault) or warhound (average of 0.5 dead monos after double). But the other thing was that the obelisks allowed me to have the monos in a 1-2-1 formation and no matter which direction you shoot you can't pick out both monos without hitting on at least one obelisk. I think that 3 monos in a single formation would be the best since that would be reasonably expensive but still easy to break and it might save the enemy through activations. At the same time it might make the other portal options more viable. ?I think that Orks are in a similar situation with the marines since they can't do anything to monoliths without Supa-Zzaps - low FF and skimmer to prevent opening them with choppa. At the same time orks need Soopaguns to mow down the phalanxes that clip warbands in FF. As I said, it's gonna be hard to balance that..

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