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Question: How important is range?

 Post subject: Question: How important is range?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:38 pm 
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That all makes sense.  I figured you'd applied your system to the Eldar weapons, I just didn't recall any details.

I've heard very few people mention fire arcs as a meaningful restriction in batreps or other discussions (on WEs - aircraft are a different matter).  Pretty much the only time it matters is when it forces a WE to move instead of Sustain Fire.  It's the exception rather than a significant issue.  I'd say 1.5x for 360 arc might be too high.  

Those new TLD stats are the same as the Gatling Blaster in that it trades ROF for MW status.    In a way it is the same as a Plasma Cannon in that it trades higher ROF and Slow Fire for a dedicated ROF.


I think this is a problem.  You could probably call MW 2x as good as pure AT, because it offers the option of hitting AP targets.  MW is definitely not 2x as powerful as a normal AP/AT shot with identical to-hit.  While you'll want to direct MW at tough targets, that's sometimes not possible due to the tactical situation.  Also, some armies just don't have many 4+ or 4+RA saves.  Against Orks and Eldar, many of the "hard" targets are only 5+ (or 5+RA) and that means MW is only worth 1.5x.  I usually ballpark MW at +2/3, rather than double.

Also, I'm sure you've heard it before, but the alpha strike potential of High RoF/slow Fire makes it better than a lower RoF.  Not only can it inflict damage sooner to create momentum, but depending on when it's destroyed or if the game has an odd number of turns it can sometimes get quite a few more shots off.

your opponent is smart enough to recognize its danger, it will become such a huge target its effectiveness will be negated

This argument is sort of a double edged sword.  Everyone has to prioritize what to kill in the enemy force and it's possible that something can be balanced yet will usually be a priority target.  However, it's also possible that something is a "must kill" precisely because it's not balanced.  It's still a necessary consideration but it's one of those things that's easy to mis-judge.

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 Post subject: Question: How important is range?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:01 am 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Dec. 02 2007,11:46)
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My system assumes that the average armor save is 4+ (Cue the Finnish Chapter of the Blarg Fan Club!) which while it might seem high, does assume that you are going to direct your fire more at the harder targets than INF that are targets of opportunity.
If MW is not a 2.0 modifier then we can explore that after playtest, if at all.

To cut and paste from the above referring to your 2xMW4+.

That does less damage at at save range apart from 4+ and 4+RA than a Gatling blaster (where it does the same).

Further MW is a sod in the game as it 'breaks' it, and is disastrous for some armies, especially marines. The fire type/save/special rules are not as good as they could be and any system has to kind of fudge it, especially if you are going more a strict modelling approach.

If you assume that it is worth twice as much it will never be a good option shot for shot. 2 normal shots vs 1 MW shot would therefore be the same as each other at armour 4+/4+RA but the MW worse shooting at every other armour type. Why use it?

C'mon Blarg you are using a model to skip the prelim testing right? If this is what it comes up with you will be testing for a very long time.

Try checking out the attached spreadsheet that plots slow fire MW options over three turns against a gatling blaster to get an idea of how they do damage against what.

OK, and how do I account for that?  What modifier do I use?  What would the logical justification be for that number instead of another?  I'm not trying to be snide, I'm trying to point out that some things I can account for in my system - MW, Slow Fire, TK, Single Shot, etc... - and some things I just have say, in the politest way I can: "Shut up and roll the dice."


Ever since we started testing I have always gone with (in my head) getting the same from a Slow Fire weapon in damage as a regular weapon over three turns. This in my mind accounts for the chance to assault turn 2 for no loss of firepower and the extra damage bonus turns 1 and 3, balanced against the fact games with titans seem to have a higher chance of going 4 turns in the GT scenario.

True, I won't deny that.  I think that the initial reactions to the VMB and VGB were just that, initial surprise.  But in an effort to mollify people enough so that they'll be willing to playtest the weapons and to make them easier to use in the game I am going to change the extra FF attack weapons in v1.1.

I think you need to play some objective based games that encourage assault to see FF differently.

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 Post subject: Question: How important is range?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:02 pm 
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OK, and how do I account for that?  What modifier do I use?  What would the logical justification be for that number instead of another?


The same way you accounted for every other factor - take your best guess at a multiplier and run with it.  While I wouldn't go as far as TRC and assume only 3 rounds of fire as the base (+1/3 firepower), it's definitely worth a nice boost.  I'd put it at 10-20% for a start.

Also, and again, this is one of those things that will be chassis-dependent to a certain extent.  A Warhound with 2 plasma blastguns can fire everything on turn 1, initiate a strong assault on turn 2, and fire everything again on turn 3 to maximize its total offensive capability.  That's not a viable on a Warlord with a plasma destructor, so the destructor doesn't need the same "slow-fire-multiplier" that a plasma blastgun would need.

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 Post subject: Question: How important is range?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:18 pm 
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Bugger I had a long and involved reply that has disappeared. Hmm, here's the bullet point version
 That's the condensed version!?  :)

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 Post subject: Question: How important is range?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:32 am 
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(nealhunt @ Dec. 03 2007,21:02)
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While I wouldn't go as far as TRC and assume only 3 rounds of fire as the base (+1/3 firepower), it's definitely worth a nice boost.  I'd put it at 10-20% for a start.

I think I actually assume +50% firepower :) (2 weapons being equal to 3 normal weapons all other factors equal.)

Though what i actually do is use spreadsheets and colour in the boxes so it all looks pretty (based on better or worse than a gatling blaster) then try and apply it to past battles in my head.


(Moscovian @ Dec. 03 2007,21:18)
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That's the condensed version!?  :)

Go take a look at the old Epic forum, you'll see just how long my verbose AMTL posts can be :) (hell take a look at this forum!).

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 Post subject: Question: How important is range?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:11 am 
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*Notes from L4SoTR - Ranged Weapons on Titans; C/Cbt weapons are for amateurs.  Epic ranges are off generally, beyond 15cms, but a lot closer then 40K. And we understand about the "artificiality" of longer ranges in Epic. An Epic scale artillery piece could fire the length of a real football field. So we "deal" with that paradigm ... :D

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 Post subject: Question: How important is range?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:46 pm 
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(Legion 4 @ Dec. 03 2007,22:11)
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*Notes from L4SoTR - Ranged Weapons on Titans; C/Cbt weapons are for amateurs.  Epic ranges are off generally, beyond 15cms, but a lot closer then 40K. And we understand about the "artificiality" of longer ranges in Epic. An Epic scale artillery piece could fire the length of a real football field. So we "deal" with that paradigm ... :D

This depends entirely on the ground-scale of the setting, really. Ground scale and miniatures scale are not the same (They practically can't be. Otherwise a 40K board would be only 90 meters from edge to edge and an Epic board would only be about 360 meters from edge to edge!)

For example: Suppose 15cm on an Epic board represents 1KM real scale. Missile launchers have 3 KM ranges, then, tank cannons have 5KM ranges, and artillery? Well an indirect firing basilisk has about 16KM of range. Modern self-propelled artillery reaches around 17-30KM worth of range with rocket-assisted shells, I believe (At least, that's my memory!). So if we assume that the Basilisk was built for more high-accuracy and less long-range purposes then the really big modern artillery pieces, then them having a range of ~16KM is not unreasonable at all!

Now, if the board-scale were the same as miniature-scale -then- a weapon at 16KM would be something like 53 meters, yeah! But then an object moving as slow as 1 KM/H should cross the board in like 21.6 minutes! You could walk leasurely across an Epic board in likely less then the time represented by two turns of the game!  :laugh:

This has been your random nerdwank for the day. Thank you, and have a good evening.


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 Post subject: Question: How important is range?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:10 pm 
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Yes, I agree. Minis don't represent real scale usually.  ORGE/GEV is a real good example of that too. And 16 "Kliks/kays" = 53m that works for me ! :D

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 Post subject: Question: How important is range?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:26 am 
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Well I can exclusively reveal that playing warhounds to death shows mono mission loads work the best and if they get access to 4xAP5+/AT3+ at 45cm you never use plasma blastguns again.

Quite possibly any list needs to have warhounds restricted to two different weapons as I don't know any other way round it. Suggestions?

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 Post subject: Question: How important is range?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:34 am 
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As i said previously some time ago: I never ever have seen an official (= in rulebooks, WDs, internet sites from GW, etc) picture or datasheed of Titans which have more than two of the same weapons. The FW Reaver with three Missile Launchers is the only exception.
Warhound models and pictures always had two different weapons too.

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 Post subject: Question: How important is range?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:38 am 
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Really? There was an all x Titan in AT days, I remember fielding it (possibly from a WD bat rep). And if you discount the empty weapon slot there were a reaver with the same weapons.

But anyway saying 1 weapon had to be different to the rest would cover it.

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 Post subject: Question: How important is range?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:12 pm 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Dec. 04 2007,18:51)
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?If the plasma assault titan is that big of a deal I could see a back-door approach to solving it by limiting a titan to half of the weapons being plasma weapons. ?That way you could only have a single Plasma Blastgun on a Warhound and at most a Plasma Destructor on a Reaver.

Hmmm...

I might add a note to my Plasma Weapons section that says something like: "Due to the strain on the reactor, a Titan may never have plasma weapons on more than half its weapon mounts."

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