Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer

 Post subject: Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:21 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
Okay. Figure I'll post this here. Was going to discuss it with Corey this last sunday, but as  he was sick and we didn't get to play that fell through. I keep hearing complaints about Destroyers being too good and heavy destroyers not being good enough... So I'll throw an idea into the ring:

Pump their cost to 400 points, increase Heavy Destroyers to x2 6+ AP, 4+ AT. With every single heavy destroyer carrying a heavy weapon and 3 to a squad, you should have at least some AP capacity there. This also neatly makes them mirrors of the basic Destroyer. The basic Destroyer gets FF 3+, but a 30 cm range compared to 45 cm on the heavy destroyers, so they're more close in assist in assaults while the heavies are a bit more stand-off and shoot (Though only modestly so).

Why 400 points? This raises them to ~66 points per model, about the same cost as a Leman Russ. What do they gain over a Russ? Faster, Skimmer, same or better FF, ability to come back to life. What do they lose? Over-all firepower against infantry (A little better against tanks, but very slightly), much shorter range, no reinforced armor. Since they get portals the shorter range and faster move speeds are both less of an issue, so I'd count them as both being canceled out. Their primary real advantage over the Russ is ultimately the Skimmer rule, which lets them force firefights. Which can be solved by simply making them follow the Jump Pack rules instead.

This gives the Necrons a tough, focused unit which moves quickly and hits hard, but is also quite expensive in individual stand terms, and lacks the close-combat punch to risk sitting -too- close to your opponents especially with their high cost. I think this'd be a superior solution to making them LVs, myself, but I could be wrong.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:35 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
I think the LV solution would be better... both from a balance perspective, and in allowing scratch builders an easier time of it (They only have to make 1 destroyer per base instead of 3).

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:49 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
I'm not quite following you on the balance perspective, to be honest. Making them LVs means you're opening them up to AP and AT fire, but unless you simultaniously change their weapon load-outs (To represent just one per base) then you're not really changing that much. The end result is that they're still incredibly lethal and under-priced for their firepower. LV status, in my experience, isn't that much of a difference over Infantry status unless facing something with lots of lascannons which has nothing better to shoot at (And in the Necron list, I'd MUCH rather point those lascannons at the Monoliths, anyway!)

I'm just not seeing the LV thing as all that good a solution, to be honest. It doesn't represent their deployment methods, usage in battle or functionality well, nor is it particularly called for in terms of style as far as I can tell. Balance-wise it doesn't seem like that much of a change, especially since most of the 'basic' weapons in the game hit infantry better then tanks anyway. Maybe someone can clue me in on why (other then modeling reasons) people want to see them become LV exactly?

In modeling terms: Corey's, I believe, are made out of Necron Scarabs and chaos robots or something like that. I know he uses scarabs for the lower torso, not positive what he uses for the upper torso/guns. Besides that with the Counts As rule you could mount one per base on an appropriately sized base, wave a hand and go 'They're all Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers' and it'd work just the same!






Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:38 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
Yeah, I've seen this discussion before. ?
One camp says to change the Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers to LVs.
Another camp says that they are too powerful on the weapons side so their armament/points/range/speed/whatever need to be changed.
Then Corey will tell us to playtest something entirely different. :) :p





_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:56 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm
Posts: 525
Location: Baltimore MD

(Moscovian @ Nov. 21 2007,10:38)
QUOTE
Yeah, I've seen this discussion before.  
One camp says to change the Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers to LVs.
Another camp says that they are too powerful on the weapons side so their armament/points/range/speed/whatever need to be changed.
Then Corey will tell us to playtest something entirely different. :) :p

There is method to my madness, as always.

For the record, I use 40k Scarabs for the base, then I take various types of power armor figures from the WizKids Mechwarrior game and use them for the torso.  Bigger, beefier armor units for heavy destroyers, and light armor units for the regular destroyers.

There, my secret is out!

_________________
Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:22 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

(Moscovian @ Nov. 20 2007,10:38)
QUOTE
Yeah, I've seen this discussion before.  
One camp says to change the Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers to LVs.
Another camp says that they are too powerful on the weapons side so their armament/points/range/speed/whatever need to be changed.
Then Corey will tell us to playtest something entirely different. :) :p

I'm not really in either camp, to  be entirely honest. I've never had many problems with Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers in the past. At least, not nearly as much as from other formations! But I keep hearing people gripe about how they're too good/too cheap/too awesome or whatever, so I thought I'd throw  out an alternative answer other then 'Make them LVs', especially given the seemingly overwhelming number of people I've heard say 'But LVs suck, everything can shoot at them! I don't want to field LVs!' in the past... Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers are amongst the most frightening things in the Necron army from a firepower and resilience standpoint short of the Tomb Spyders and Monoliths. Making them LVs just feels wrong to me, to be honest.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:13 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:08 pm
Posts: 148
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA
Has there been any more progress/discussion/updates on these guys?  

Are Destroyers going to get their shots cut in half?  Are Heavy Destroyers going to go back to 2x AT4+ and a points increase?  Are they staying as Infantry?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:16 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
No more discussion has been had to my knowledge.  Corey wants playtesting.  He even said playtesting with alternate stats (i.e. if you are trying to prove a point then give it a shot) would be fine.  Can't say I blame him.
 
Ultimately we need games.  My games fell through due to work.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:29 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:08 pm
Posts: 148
Location: Cleveland, OH, USA
My wife has her last final on Friday, so I'm HOPING we can get a game or two in over winter break.  I know I'm dying for a game.

Are there any particular profiles we should use, or just pick something and try it out?  I was thinking on running Destroyers as is, Heavy Destroyers at 2x AT4+ for +20 points per Heavy upgrade... that would put an Heavy Eques formation with a lord at 495 points.  Think that's execssive?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:44 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
I dunno. At 470 for 6 guys that says 78.33 points each. That's a LOT of point value. Comparatively a Space Marine Predator with ATSKNF and comparable AT value, Speed and Armor (And better range) is only around 69 points or so. Necron ability along with Portals are both very nice as is the Skimmer ability, but I'm not sure it's worth a 13.5% price-hike compared to a unit with ATSKNF even if they do get slightly better FF ability. Especially when you compare them on Sustain Fire orders with similar numbers. I'd put Heavy Destroyers right around 400-425 points or so for a formation. I'd probably charge around 10 points each to upgrade from basic destroyers (If the basic destroyer price shouldn't also go up) considering their functional power compared to similar units in other lists with similar biases and initiative. Especially when factoring in the low SR that Necrons get.





Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:59 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm
Posts: 525
Location: Baltimore MD
so far, I've managed to put in one Necron Game... which I lost due to a single mistake on my part :(

The destroyers never got a chance to do anything, they were annihilated almost as soon as they hit the board.

FYI:  Cobras set up in a defensive position on over-watch are bad, bad medicine.

_________________
Necron Army Champion
"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:03 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
As the one who was PLAYING said necrons: Yes, yes they are. They'll obliterate pretty much whatever you feel like hitting with them more or less.

I think the Destroyers killed... I dunno, two stands of Guardians or something like that, then promptly died horribly after being broken by something (Sustain from the Night Spinners? I don't remember for sure) and died later that turn to Phoenix Bombers dropping 3 BP of disrupt on them.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:59 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
Call for a batrep.  Or at least a brief batrep.  Whch rules were used, how did the removal of the autorally effect the list's play?  What were the conditions behind the destruction of the destroyers?

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:13 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:59 am
Posts: 67
Location: Sydney, Australia
just throwing an idea out there for the heavy destroyers. since the pylon is the only necron unit that is AA, it becomes quite boring that every army has at least one.

So given that in 40K the heavy destroyer model has that cool targeter thing on its shoulder i propose that instead of changing them to AT4+/AP6+ we should make them AT4+/AA6+, this way the necrons have a re-deployable anti air alternative but it has a short range and only a single shot models which can be avoided, however they could cover units vulnerable to air attacks.

it could work and they are still useful with only a single shot.

_________________
HiddenEvil - The Evil within
-EA Necron contributor


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:25 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
Rules were Swordwind Eldar, current Necrons.

Lists were something like this:

Eldar:

Rangers (x5/6?)

Guardian Warhost
+Wraithguard
+Wraithlords

Dark Reapers
+Falcons

3 Cobras

Nightspinners

Falcons w/ 2 Firestorms

Phoenix Bombers

Avatar

Necrons:

Phalanx
+3 Spyders
+1 Pariah
+2 Immortals

Phalanx

Phalanx

Venators
+Lord

Eques
+Lord

Monolith
+2 Obelisks

Monolith
+2 Obelisks

Monolith
+2 Obelisks

Obelisk Recon

Pylon

Nightbringer

Tomb Complex


Deployment: Eldar choose corner to corner deployment, deploying in a corner behind some woods, with their rangers set up in a diagonal to fence off the entire corner of the board. Guardians intermingled with them using the Wraithlords to give cover to the rangers not in the woods and to reinforce them. Aspect Warriors are set up behind this line 5-10cm or so, in base to base with their falcons, cobras behind aspects, nightspinners behind cobras, falcons off slightly to one side infront of the aspects but behind the guardian/ranger shield. Necrons garrison one phalanx off an objective in some nearby woods, near one of the necron objectives.

Turn 1: Necrons teleport in obelisks behind a hill and a pylon (Forgot the pylon change about not being able to hold objectives, so rather stupidly put it next to one of them which restricted its field of fire, not that it did anything anyway). Obelisks take 3 BMs on teleport. Eldar win the initiative and sustain fire with Nightspinners breaking the Obelisks and killing three (I think). Phalanx in the woods doubles to take Eldar objective. Phoenixes ground-attack the Pylon, pylon fails to hit them, takes no damage but is broken. Rest of the Eldar army goes on overwatch. Obelisks phase out, rally off-board. Pylon remains broken.

Turn 2: Two Monoliths, The Nightbringer, the Venators and the remaining obelisks teleport in, Avatar appears infront of the Eldar lines almost directly infront of the nightbringer. Venators take 3 blast markers. Necrons lose the initiative and the Falcons blow the Monolith to pieces (I think? Not entirely positive what happened, the monolith went away in any case). Obelisks (I think) shot at the Guardians, killing one stand and placing two blast markers. Nightbringer retains to combined assault with the Venators. Has to divert his charge around the Avatar, sadly. Cobras and Rangers respond by firing on the venators, destroying most of them and breaking both the nightbringer and the venators, forcing them to flee. Eldar Avatar activates, having nothing in engagement range he does something unexpected... He sustains fire on the Obelisks and breaks them (I think that's right...). Necrons bring the Destroyers through Monolith 2 and shoot at the Guardians, kill two guardians and place three blast markers, remaining close to the Monolith and Obelisks to claim cover. Nightspinners sustain on the monolith (I think, might have been the destroyers), place two blast markers on the monolith and break the destroyers. Destroyers run away, phoenixes come in and destroy them completely with disrupting BP. Nightbringer rallies off-board, venators remain broken as do the obelisks. Pylon rallies, Eldar Guardians rally.

Turn 3: Last Monolith teleports in, Nightbringer teleports in again. No blast markers on either as I recall. Eldar start the turn off with the Cobras sustaining on the new monolith, destroying both Obelisks but leaving the Monolith alive! Retained with the Falcons, I think, and sustained on the monolith... And still didn't kill it, amazingly. Nightbringer engages the Guardians and Rangers, and manages to kill a rather un-stunning two of them (5 macroweapon attacks, 2 TK attacks and 3 normal attacks, and I hit with something like 2 MW and 1 normal...) but wins the assault and breaks the guardians anyway. Pylon retains with a sustain fire on the cobras and misses. Phoenixes show up, attacking the Pylon and breaking it again, doing a point of damage this time. Eldar did something else at this point, but I can't recall what, exactly. The monolith with remaining obelisks took a Marshall to move forwards without rolling for activation, attempts to retain with the BTS phalanx and fails, phalanx instead advances out of the other monolith in an attempt to hedge in the Eldar so they can't move anywhere. Eldar do something again, I think this may be where Corey doubled his Aspect Warriors instead of Marching them which didn't quite get them across the mid-line due to the positioning of the remaining necrons requiring them to move up one board edge to get around them. Remaining necron phalanx on the board marches to claim both objectives on the Necron side, other phalanx advances out of the tomb complex to claim it. 2-0 for Necrons with Defend The Flag and They Shall Not Pass.


It was really a pyrrhic victory to be honest, though. I lost all my Destroyers, a Monolith, all but 2 flayed one stands, seven obelisks and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting, and in total killed something like 4 guardians and broke two formations all game. By all rights Corey should have won the game had he not misjudged the distance to the mid-field. I did some fairly noob-ish things (having never played Necrons before, only ever played against them as AMTL), but a good turtle set up with a picket of scouts works wonders to stop the Necrons from getting at much of anything they'll want to get at, especially if backed up by something which is sufficiently shooty on overwatch.

Cobras on Overwatch will more or less eat anything trying to approach them though. 6 BP of TK damage will more or less obliterate an entire unit effortlessly, even when not on sustained fire.






Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net