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Streamlined Titan list

 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:11 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Nov. 18 2007,18:05)
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Well they are whatever cool internet symbols mean elite troops - I'm sure with them and the scouts some of their skirmishing ways help make them harder to kill :)

I'm not sure I understand this, but it is undeniable that Storm Troopers are physically normal humans wearing carapace armour, whilst Skitarii are cybernetically enhanced humans wearing carapace armour.

Having Skitarii as inferior in armour to Storm Troopers is simply unjustified.

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:17 pm 
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Love the melta-cannon change, do not love Tarantulas. 50pts activation is always suspicious, especially if they get 4x AT 4+ garrison for 50pts! If they cannot be garrisoned, then maybe...

Do not love Carapace Landing Pad nor Free Control Centre


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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:46 am 
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Well tarantula wise they can always go back to AP only - that way they can't malfunction and start shooting Titans :)

I would like the non weapon options to stay as it makes the Titans a bit more fun. I think they can be balanced and no one to date has showned titans with such upgrades ruling the board.

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:11 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 18 2007,18:11)
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(The_Real_Chris @ Nov. 18 2007,18:05)
QUOTE
Well they are whatever cool internet symbols mean elite troops - I'm sure with them and the scouts some of their skirmishing ways help make them harder to kill :)

I'm not sure I understand this, but it is undeniable that Storm Troopers are physically normal humans wearing carapace armour, whilst Skitarii are cybernetically enhanced humans wearing carapace armour.

Having Skitarii as inferior in armour to Storm Troopers is simply unjustified.

FYI, in Black Library publications, by no means are all skitari equipped to the same standards as stormtroopers with full carapace armour and hellguns. There is quite a wide variation in tech-guard/skitari equipment, training and level of cybernetic enhancement.

There are at least some who are barely superior to run of the mill IG in truth (and I can think of several full carapace IG regiments popping up as well). It makes sense when you think that tech-guard are basically IG for forgeworlds, so by no means could they be all elite, or all standard.

I cant speak for how they are portrayed in 40k tabletop however.

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:41 am 
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Well in that case they can become 'Skitari Psiloi'. Everyone should be happy then!

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:29 am 
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Impressive.

I especially like this...
3 years is long enough - finalise now!


:) Now to actually get these things onto the table... where'd I put that Ord Armageddon...

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:04 pm 
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FYI, in Black Library publications, by no means are all skitari equipped to the same standards as stormtroopers with full carapace armour and hellguns. There is quite a wide variation in tech-guard/skitari equipment, training and level of cybernetic enhancement.


The 'average' Skitarii unit is equipped with carapace armour.

Plus, the Black Library can only be trusted so far... even their premier series (The Horus Heresy books) make basic mistakes about the 40k universe (A craftworld being an 'impressive' 800 metres long anyone?)

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:34 pm 
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Surely the point of the Black Library is that it helps to define the background? I'm sure GW have been pretty clear that they have no tiered cannon system so each and every piece of background is fair game.

If you don't want to rely on the (numerous) appearances of tech-guard in books, then just what can we rely on seeing as there is no tech-guard 40k codex?

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:38 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 19 2007,06:04)
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FYI, in Black Library publications, by no means are all skitari equipped to the same standards as stormtroopers with full carapace armour and hellguns. There is quite a wide variation in tech-guard/skitari equipment, training and level of cybernetic enhancement.


The 'average' Skitarii unit is equipped with carapace armour.

Plus, the Black Library can only be trusted so far... even their premier series (The Horus Heresy books) make basic mistakes about the 40k universe (A craftworld being an 'impressive' 800 metres long anyone?)

This discussion about the lack of volume and quality of background information for anything Adeptus Mechanicus highlights why this army list has been difficult to do.  With the Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Eldar, and to a lesser extent the Orks there is enough volume of background information from GW proper that there is little room for a writer to crank out garbage background information.

The AMTL is, for the most part, an Epic only organization.  Until WH40K Apocolypse there was no need to define the AMTL because of their use of titans which aren't really used in regular games of WH40K.  Since there is so little background information written for Epic-related publications there isn't much to work with of quality.

I suggest that we use Black Library and non-Epic GW books as sources of inspiration and not as accurate guides of what should and should not be.  Epic-related writings on the AMTL and our visions of what the AMTL ought to be, in relation to everybody else in the game, should guide what stats various units get.

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:30 pm 
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Really? I quite like them :) As has been pointed out the list is populated with void shielded tough 1+ initiative monsters. He is handy for re-rolls of moral tests but that?s mostly it. Sticking him in the Warlord at least makes the BTS also the SC which is rarely a good idea.

Actually it makes no odds to me if he is free, 25 points or 50. I doubt I will be taking Warlords much. This is simply the result of dozens of games trying to make them work at 3000 points. At 4000+ you need the toughness as now there are enough TK weapons knocking around to take out 2 or 3 or your Reavers with ease. But at 3000 you need the activations more. If anyone ever gets more than one to work I will applaud them, I never could. And even then that one was basically the spearhead unit and also the BTS, somewhat annoying. As a result if I ever did by the SC (and he ain?t worth it compared to another activation of sentinels) he would get stuck in a Reaver.

Dropping the points doesn?t work either. If anything the Warlord is discounted as it is. Any points drop and things go downhill. Sadly in this force structure Reavers rule (in the old one the Warhound did but the less said about that the better). I want to see the iconic Epic unit in the game and this is the only way I can think of making it attractive.


It should be noted that I took the Connecticut tournament with a list running 2 warlords, 1 warhound pack, 3 knights paladin, 3 knights lancer and 2 units of sentinels. Warlord with a CLP, 2 quake cannons and a chainfist is a nasty nasty thing, especially when backed up with enough stuff to roll forwards while it pounds stuff with indirect fire. Though I suspect a large portion of the success was due to A: Luck and B: People not being very used to fighting titans. In any case, I found that a Warlord sitting on your Blitz marker which was -not- your BTS goal made the opponent claiming Blitz and BTS at the same time extremely difficult. Past experience and batreps on here has also shown me that generally it's BTS and/or Blitz along with maybe Take and Hold which wins the games. So denying Blitz or BTS unless the opponent focuses very hard on killing two separate warlords makes this significantly harder.

Though I don't think I'd field that particular army again any time soon, to be honest, as it has a lot of drawbacks if fought right.






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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:22 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Nov. 19 2007,14:30)
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Warlord with a CLP, 2 quake cannons and a chainfist is a nasty nasty thing, especially when backed up with enough stuff to roll forwards while it pounds stuff with indirect fire.


Do you mean that the Warlord was sustaining whilst the rest of your army was advancing forward? I read it first time as you were advancing and using indirect at the same time. ?:blush:

Can you remember what sort of activation counts you were facing?

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:33 pm 
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Essentially I had 2 warlords. one sitting on my blitz, the other advancing. The sentinels typically garrisoned forwards across the middle of the board, stretched out enough to cover the entire length of the board (or very nearly) with their ZoCs. Knights deployed at the flanks, warhound pack deployed mirror the forward warlord. Rear warlord sat on my blitz and sustained fire pretty much every turn to put a 4 BP Macroweapon barrage into someone, somewhere. Killed DS's supreme commander on turn 1 that way, as I recall. Didn't face anyone playing a very flier-heavy army, or anyone with really absurd activation counts, but I was usually out-activated by about 1-2 on turn 1, and usually 3-4 by the end of the game as I'd lost most if not all the sentinels. Not positive, though, this was over a year ago after all!

I credit most of my victory to luck, though. DS failed most of his activations on the second turn of our game, the guy playing Chaos teleported some chosen in to assault position on by BTS warlord... Then lost the initiative to me and said warlord promptly blew them to bits. A few things going  differently and I probably would have lost the tourney. But I wouldn't accredit that to the fielding of two Warlords, the two worked wonders as far as I could find.


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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:16 am 
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Thanks for the additional information, these points help to show how different groups can get different results. In tournaments in the UK we often have armies with 11 - 13 activations which can force a different approach to a game.

With the reduction in the support options and lack of ability for Warhound Packs to generate Support choices I am having problems balancing a list without taking mainly Warhound Packs. This is the list that I am the most happy with at the moment:-

Reaver Battle Titan 2x Quake Cannon & 1x Carapace Landing Platform
Warhounds 2x Scout Turbolaser Destructors each
Warhounds 2x Scout Multiple Missile Launchers each
Warhounds 2x Scout Mega Bolters each
Warhounds Scout Turbolaser Destructors & Plasmagun each
Skitarii Cohort - Skitarii & Chimeras 3
Flak Battery

Which contains double the number of hounds I had in my previous prefered list. (Note: that this list has not been tested & if anybody would like to try it out I would be happy to hear the results)

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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:37 am 
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The exact list I ran was this one:

Legio Vindex
3,000 Points.


Warlord "Cruentus Manus" w/ Laser Burner, Melta-Cannon, 2x TLD, Legate. (950)

Warlord "Tempestas Ruina" w/ 2x Quake Cannon, 1x Chain Fist, 1x CLP. (850)

Warhound Pack w/ 2x Light Inferno Gun, 2x Light TLD. (500)

Knights Paladin w/ 3x Knights Paladin (250)

Knights Lancer w/ 3x Knights Lancer (250)

Recon Cohort (100)

Recon Cohort (100)

My current thoughts on a list for the new army involves fielding 3 battle titans, 2 warhounds and 2 recon cohorts. But I -LOVE- recon cohorts. They are, by far, the best piece of kit in my army on a points-for-effectiveness level. A 100 point formation which can virtually force your opponent to waste 2-3x their point value, and often times 2-3 different activations, just to get past them to reach your side of the board is quite nice. But, I admit I've never faced anything all that air-heavy, and I'm sure an Ork army with 2 Landas would probably beat me senseless. Or Space Marines with tons of Thunderhawks. I've only played twice against Space Marines that I recall, against OrangeSM sometime before the tourney, I think. The 'real' game (IE, the one I didn't field the Imperator) I think I won, but mostly by the sheer absurdity of the Knights Lancer combined with a bit of luck (Rallying my Warhound on turn 4 after it spent 2 turns running away from a single unbroken predator which I could not seem to get rid of to claim his Blitz as I recall!). That was the first game I -didn't- field a Warlord in and I really felt it. The comparative fragility of the Reaver, especially as it lacks Thick Rear Armor, is a bit notable when you're used to having such a resilient BTS goal. Combine this with the fact that in that game I was light on AP fire and it was a very close match. Never got a chance to play the two warlord list against him that I recall, though.

To be honest, I have few reservations about giving initiative to the enemy in most cases. I spend the majority of my games playing against Necrons, as Corey's the only opponent I'm aware of around here, so I've gotten rather used to the idea that the opponent will hit me first and that my real job is to hit back and hit harder then he did.

To be entirely frank, I don't think I will ever field a list for AMTL without at least 2 formations of Scouts at least 4 strong each. The result is quite amazing when you can string out your scouts across the middle of the board to the point where the enemy -has- to spend at least one activation shooting at them if he wants to move his land-based models across the field. The ability to use them as shields against teleport attacks is also a big boon IMHO. Since they can be placed around a titan to force enemies to teleport in 20cm away from the titan, far enough that few can assault it directly, and virtually none can without first destroying the sentinels, it buys you a little time for that titan to take its toll on the opponents before being attacked. Works against air assaults too as I recall, so long as you place them close enough that there's not any big enough gaps in their ZoC to allow something to land inside their control area!






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 Post subject: Streamlined Titan list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:05 am 
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I think that it is bad that only battletitans give you option for support formations. I think that Warhoundpacks should be able to do it too.

Maybe then someone would make 3 Warhoun Pack and 5 Single Warhounds (2875) but I only would see it boring (it could be efective, but would it be too efective *shrug*).

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