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Assault & CC hits
Ginger
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:37 pm 
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All of the above is why I really favour a single, all inclusive, section on hit allocation. I do think it is possible with relatively little effort along the lines tried by Markonz and others. I envisage it looking something like this, and I would summarise the relevant parts in 1.9 Shooting and 1.12 Assault and point them to this section (note I have just written this down fresh, paraphrasing some bits to give an impression of what I think it would look like : -
    1.13 Hit Allocation
    Hits are caused through Shooting or Assault, and these hits are separated into different ?pools? depending upon the type of combat and weapon. Hit allocation is performed after all shooting or assault dice are thrown irrespective of the weapon type, and is split into three rounds using the hits pooled for for ?Normal? weapons, Macro Weapons and Titan killer weapons. In each round, all the hits are allocated first and then Saving Rolls are made for each unit with one or more hits.

    1.13.1 ?Hit allocation process
    In each Hit Allocation round, hits from the relevant "pool" are allocated from front to back in respect to the formation causing the hits (so the first hit is placed on the unit nearest the enemy formation), and must be spread as evenly as possible across eligible target units (refer to 1.9 Shooting or 1.12 Assault to determine which units are eligible). If there are any hits remaining after each eligible unit has been allocated a hit, repeat the allocation process from front to rear until all hits from the pool have been allocated. When allocating hits to a War Engine, allocate the number of hits equal to it's Damage Capacity before moving on to the next unit. After all hits from a particular Hit ?pool? have been allocated, Saving rolls are taken for each unit with on or more hits.

    ?Normal? Shooting hits are further split into AP and AT hits. AP hits may only be allocated to infantry and Light Vehicles, while AT hits may only be allocated to Light Vehicles, Armoured Vehicles and War Engines.

    Hits from Macro Weapons differ slightly as they must be allocated 'from front to back' to targets closest to the unit with the Macro Weapon. Also, Macro Weapon hits are so powerfull that they automatically penetrate and destroy units with normal armour. They may only be deflected by shields or units with Reinforced Armour (which only take the RA save).

    Hits from Titan Killer weapons are treated as Macro Weapons, but must be allocated first to War Engines, and then to other target units. Also, once allocated the relevant dice is thrown to determine the actual number of hits caused before the next Titan Killer hit is considered.

    Some Units or weapons have the First Strike ability. These Units assault first, even if they are in support (see 1.12.6) and their hits are allocated and resolved as a separate process before any other combat takes place.

    1.13.2 ?Saving Throws
    To make a saving Throw . . . . etc

    1.13.3 ?Shields
    Titans sometimes have shield generators . . . . etc
Note, with respect to Assault hits, I would like to remove the "gameyness" by requiring them to be spread out from the centre of the formation causing the hits, so in Rpr's case of 2x hits on 4x units in CC, they would be placed on the two central units.




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Ginger
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:47 pm 
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(Hena @ Oct. 12 2007,11:34)
QUOTE

(thurse @ Oct. 12 2007,12:40)
QUOTE
Some more points :
- if a formation receives disrupt and normal hits, the defender chooses which unit get the disrut and which unit gets the normal hits right?

Since defender always allocates the hits (in both experimental and Neals option 2), it's yes. However there is currently only 1 weapon in assault that has disrupt. And hopefully no more is added.

- Should lance weapon hits be allocated during the MW allocation phase or during the normal phase? Now I think it is during the normal phase, but is it the best solution?

And Lance would be allocated in normal round. I can't come up with a reason why it would be better in MW class. I mean I see why it could be, but I'm not sure does it have that much game effect.

Umm - - - I'm not sure here Hena. You get the same issue as if you were to combine 'normal' and MW hits - letting anyone choose where they are allocated is obviously open to abuse. Using Eldar, I get this quite a lot combining Shining Spears with other 'normal' units / supporting formations.

I think it may be better to include them with the MW round which would possibly give them a slightly better reach, offset by the possibility of being allocated to unarmoured units (thus losing the effect of Lance).

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:40 pm 
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I like what Ginger has written. It seems like it would be fairly straight forward.

I have another question about the hit-allocation rules:
If I recall correctly, one of the reasons why players wanted a change from the assault rules in the rulebook had to do with SM Terminators. The problem was that Termies could kill everything in base contact with their normal hits, which meant that any MW CC hits they scored were lost. This was bad because Termies were so expensive and could rarely get more than one enemy unit in BtB when they (the termies) assaulted. The original experimental rules solved that by doing away with the different allocation rounds and hits from CC attacks were no longer limited to enemies in base contact.

In the proposed rules we are discussing here, are we intending to allow hits from CC attacks (of any type) to be allocated to enemy units not in base contact?

It seems like we're saying: roll all of your attacks at once, then allocate them (in rounds based on the type of weapon) to any enemy that is within fire fight range, regardless of whether the attack came from CC or FF (at least for non-WEs, since WEs have specific rules dictating who can be hit by what).

Im okay with that, but I'm not sure everyone is on the same page. I'm getting confused when people say things like "enemy units in range" and "eligible enemy units" without explaining which enemies are "in range" or are "eligible." Does "in range" refer to the range from the attacking unit to the defending unit, or to the affected area of the assault (15cm or less from any enemy unit)?
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Ginger
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:56 pm 
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semajnollissor, bear in mind that I was trying to show how IMO you could write a single section to cover the whole thing rather than cover every point.

Definitions of what is an "eligible target" or "in range" could be put into the text here, or possibly left in the relevant section on shooting etc. However, puting them in separate sections also helps with the subtle difference between determining which units can shoot or assault and determining which enemy units can have hits allocated to them.

As you know, MW CC hits were restricted in the book, but this was removed in the experimental approach. IMO that is open to a little abuse, hence my suggestion of "closest to the weapon". This allows presents the feeling of the Termies striding forward during the assault, blasting as they go rather than the static image presented on the tabletop.

The rules always had separate rounds of hit allocation both for shooting and Assault, but the effects were subly different. For shooting, it meant that any "meat shield" was blown away by successively powerfull weaponry keeping the best shots for allocation on the most worthwhile targets. This was my attempt to bring Assault in line while damping down the "flying powerfist"

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:26 pm 
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Ginger, That's fine. I just want everyone to be clear (use more words in their explainations) in their posts. I honestly don't know what the various posters here are advocating when they talk about when the say things like "enemy units in range," or"eligible enemy units." Those terms mean different things depending on what set of rules the individual person is used to playing.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:52 pm 
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To be fair, outside an intermingled target I do not think there are many cases where there is a mix of units with both normal and reinforced armour. However, could you explain your objection a bit further Hena.

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