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Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
dafrca
 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 12:34 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 22 2003 Aug.,15:52)
Hi!


As Jervis was starting over, he could have started with any die type and built the new rules around that die, but he ellected to continue with the d6. Not sure why, it could have been fine with any of the types.


I think that is part of the problem. Technically he didn't "start over". He used epic 40k and started from there. Since that game used d6's so does EpicA.

Had he REALLY started from scratch...well...perhaps things "may" have turned out differently.

Primarch

When i used the words "starting over" I ment he was doing a new edition and therfor could have changed what ever he thought needed to be changed for the new edition. (Think D&D 3rd Edition, they made major changes in that edition shift).

He had the chance, he may have not taken the opportunity, but he had it. When you intro a new edition it does not have to mirror the last one at all. Or at least that is my opinion  :D

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primarch
 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:23 am 
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Hi!

He had the chance, he may have not taken the opportunity, but he had it. When you introduce a new edition, it does not have to mirror the last one at all. Or at least that is my opinion!


I agree. I would have hoped this edition would have done away with its' associations with ALL previous Epic versions. Start afresh without preconceptions on which edition it was needed to be based on. I think it was important, just on the basis of perception to start from scratch and make fresh new start.

This is because Epic-A will not be measured as a game in its' own right, but will be measured as to how it stands up to Epic-40k or SM/TL. Those who like Epic-40k will pick on those points in common with SM/TL and, on the other side of the coin, others will do the opposite. That's the problem of any systems that is based on the presumption of being "the best of both version," an unreachable goal IMHO.

I would have prefered a system pitched as "a revolutionary new game design very different from previous versions of Epic." Whether it is truly revolutionary or not wouldn't be the point, but at least it doesn't seek to emulate or "follow," but lead.

Perception is everything in marketing and rather than the new Epic be a melding of games, it would have been nice that it had had nothing in common with older Epic versions.

Just my usual dollar fifty.

Primarch.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:57 am 
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Yes,

I agree that unless you come up with some Commando Assault rule/system, massed infantry attacks on a Titan should have little chance of success. However massed combined arms fires should cause some level of damage, and enough could crash the damned thing! ?

D6 vs. D10:

I could go either way on this, however G/W is nothing if not "traditional." They are still using the Standard Stats lines from the original D&D for 40K! You know the BS/WS/TS etc., etc., - how quaint! ?

With Epic and with 40K, the last version's models should be usable with the new rules, regardless. D10 would be too big a paradigm shift for the G/W crew and 15-year-old comic book reading crowd that likes bright shiny things... :;):

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Tas
 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 5:15 am 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 22 2003 Aug.,00:03)
I was apparently suffering under an Americo-centric delusion that all the naval vessels were more heavily armed than armored. Go fig.
Alright. ?I take back my angry face and admit that it was my misunderstanding. Mea Culpa! (and thanks for the education)
:D


No, you are EXACTLY right. My comments ranged over a century of naval evolution, but today most certainly armament FAR FAR outweighs armour. 95% of the world's combatants are completely unarmoured except maybe for some kevlar around vital areas for defense versus shrapnel damage.

The metal that DD/FF's are made from is much thinner than even the hulls of merchant ships. Why? Weight, pure and simple. If I can go faster with the same engine with less weight, or (engage cynicism mode) use a smaller cheaper engine to make my specified speed then I'll take the cheaper route.

Missiles cause horrendous damage these days, and the days of armour are gone. A single Torpedo will tear a DD in half and sink it within minutes. Far better not to get hit in the first place. The Chinese Navy doesn't even practice damage control; they assume any ship that it hit with a modern missile is an automatic write-off...

So Neal, bask in the knowledge that your assumptions were indeed correct! :;):

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 5:40 am 
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Well Tas,

You are a Navy man so your word is good enough for me! ?:;): ?

And I love the Chinese version of damage control! :laugh: ?

I never heard that before!

So in my mind, since we see Epic as a "Hi-tech" version of WWII, Titans fit into the old WWII version of warships - lots of armor & lots of firepower!

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong... :laugh:

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Tas
 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:22 pm 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 23 2003 Aug.,14:40)
And I love the Chinese version of damage control! :laugh: ?

I never heard that before!

I'm sure you think more of it than the Chinese sailors do! :D

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Tas
 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:24 pm 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 23 2003 Aug.,14:40)
So in my mind, since we see Epic as a "Hi-tech" version of WWII, Titans fit into the old W.W.II version of warships - lots of armor & lots of firepower!


Sure- W.W.2 Battlewagons. Today's warships are more what was described here as a light weapons platform - a method of moving and employing a variety of weapons but not necessarily being able to absorb much damage.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:08 pm 
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I'm not sure if I have high regard for Chinese sailors, but I like the "All-you-can-eat" ?Buffet, their cousins have near the mall! ?:laugh: ?:laugh: ?:blush: ?

And yes, like I said, I see Titans like W.W.II BBs/BCs, etc.

But it's a matter of perception and taste - hey, I really don't care if they are used as paper weights and somewhere to hang your car keys! :laugh:

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Tas
 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:47 am 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 24 2003 Aug.,00:08)
hey, I really don't care if they are used as paper weights and somewhere to hang your car keys! :laugh:

I do...

Anyone using their Titans in this manner should call me- and I'll make you an offer for them! :D

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Dooglebug
 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:14 pm 
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It is interesting that your are comparing Titans to WW2 battleships as even in that period the Battleship had past its hayday and loosing prominence to Carrier Warfare and Airpower. IIRC most of the significant Naval Engagements were won by Carriers with a few exceptions. Many beleive that air attack is one of the great weakness' for Titans and is something I think Jervis found hard to balance if I recall correctly.  I think due to this you couljd narrow the analogy down even further to early WW2 where carriers existed but their potential wasn't fully realised or exploited until the British sank the French Fleet in harbour.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:50 pm 
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All very true Bug ! I mentioned this before, by releasing aircraft into the game the paradigm changes everything. Now Flak and Air-to-Air combat are added to the mix. We don't use Air-to-Air, that's a whole other game! ? Flak works but needs more research from a rules standpoint. Being a BIG advocate of many of the SM1 rules, Airstikes are well simulated by the SM1 Off-board Support system (and we have modified rules to incorperate that). Plus we made the rule based on SM1, that only 25% of your total points may be used on Titans, Aircraft and Off-board Support. ?It's makes things more realistic and playable. ?However, G/W is artist driven and many ?players of G/W games are interested in "new bright shiny things" so it is a good move from a profit standpoint to make Aircraft models to sell to make profits (hopefully). :;): ? Oh Tas, my Titans and all my Epic models, are kept in plastic display cases, and treated with reverence ... Praise the Emperor ! ?:laugh:

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primarch
 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 12:46 am 
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Hi!

I agree that the representation of actual air-to-air combat in epic may be more detail than need. This comes from practical experience with netepic version 3.0, where we had a very detail air-to-air system. It became quickly apparent that either it wasn't used or in a very stripped down format, thus it was "abstracted" later on.

Primarch

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Tas
 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:50 am 
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Do you still have those A2A rules available?  I'd be intertesed in having a look.  

Like many here it seems, I am a frustrated rules tinkerer too! :;):

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primarch
 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:42 am 
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Hi!

I think the whole system appeared in one of the earlier Incoming! e-zines.

I'll have to check.

Primarch

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Titan and Warmachine-heavy Armies...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:30 pm 
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So, does anyone on here know if there is going to be any Epic gaming at DC?

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