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The Harbinger Bomber
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 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:57 am 
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I just ordered one from F/W ! I'm out of my mind ! :O

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firestorm40k
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:40 am 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jul. 04 2007,17:28)
QUOTE
Three options I can see

1) Cheat. After x damage the bomber is driven off (read destroyed) - a way of artifically lowering the DC.

2) Wiggle it into the rules - but expensive air is never good even if you can pseudo balance it.

3) Alternative orbital strike. Add it the 'spaceships'. A varient is the high altitude bit, its a spaceship but uses normal bombing templates and doesn't have to decide target point in advance and is slow and steady (turn three you know the heavens will open!).

Well, I've been thinking of getting one to use in the big 12,000 points Iron Hands v Chaos Participation game I'm going to run at the opening weekend for our wargaming facilities.

To be honest, I think it's for larger games that the Harbinger is best suited, like the Imperator or Capitol Imperialis would/should be.

I like these suggestions of Chris's, especially the bit about making it like an alternative Orbital strike.

E&C has a good point, anything with 5+RA is not neccessarily indestructible!  :D
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Markconz
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:17 am 
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My Nightwings have chalked up LC's a few times, even a single flight is pretty dangerous to them  :)

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CAL001
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:47 am 
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Found an existing stat from AI3. It is from the Marauder Destroyer and is as follows:

Twin Autocannons 30cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+

From looking at the model the other day I saw Twin Autos.

I like the idea of this and reguardless I will have to get one.

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Cal
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:33 am 
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Latest consensus-based stats:



Speed: Bomber
Armour: 5+ (Reinforced)
3x Twin Autocannons     30cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+   (Forward, Left, Right Arcs).
Bombs: BP6 (Ignore Cover)
Damage Capacity: 4
Critical Hit Effect: Destroyed


How many points gents?

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Markconz
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:38 am 
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300-350ish?

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CAL001
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:04 pm 
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300 gets you a pair of Marauders, we play Marauder destroyers at 350, may be it should be a bit more, it delivers a fair wack when it turns up, more than a pair of Marauders can deliver. 375-400 maybe

Cal
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Markconz
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:10 pm 
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(CAL001 @ Jul. 05 2007,11:04)
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300 gets you a pair of Marauders, we play Marauder destroyers at 350, may be it should be a bit more, it delivers a fair wack when it turns up, more than a pair of Marauders can deliver. 375-400 maybe

Cal

Marauders are over pointed though. Recent proposals have them going down to 250 and still maybe needing a boost.

The Harbringer has a decent bomb attack (against infantry mainly) and a few pop guns. Doesn't seem that effective or worth that many points to me with its current stats.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:19 pm 
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600.

Same power as two rt batteries, much harder to destroy.

Would rather have that than a basilisk arty company.

Small point on stats - as the autocanon are all over the place (not reapers?) and 360 traverse mounts get 15cm knocked off range just have one twin autocannon listed, with 360 degree fire arc. Also I would lose the ground attack values on them - this thing presumably would be at high altitude and not in range.

Also twin autocannon have AA6+ unless they are Hydra dedicated AA guns (which are AA5+)

Write it as
Twin autocannon turrets - 30cm, AA6+, may fire all round

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Markconz
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:31 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jul. 05 2007,11:19)
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600.

Same power as two rt batteries, much harder to destroy.

Would rather have that than a basilisk arty company.

Can't hold objectives.

Can't sustain fire.

Firepower not comparable to 500 points of manticores / bombards which can sustain fire with 2 templates one round and 1 template the other.

Artillery companies are not a fair comparison because in small games they are just too vulnerable.

At 600 no-one will use it.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:17 pm 
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I think around 450 points would be a good starting point.


My gut tells me it's actually worth less.


Same power as two rt batteries, much harder to destroy.


Armour-wise yes.

Tactically, I think you'd find your Harbinger bomber would be just as vulnerable, but in a different way.

This beast has to be flying through the enemy's flak guns every turn, while gun batteries can hide at the back of the board for most of the game.

It's going to pick up BM's (So it might not even turn up on some turns). It's going to get intercepted (And has pretty poor AA defenses). It also eats into your Titans / Navy allowance.

I propose 450pts.

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orangesm
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:56 pm 
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Same power as two rt batteries, much harder to destroy.

Would rather have that than a basilisk arty company.


You say that, but would you rather have 2 Marauder formations than a Basilisk Company.  
At the moment it is roughly equivalent to 3 Marauders, a good conversion from the AeroImp rules.  It is a little harder than 3 Marauders to take down because it has Reinforced Armor.  So 500 pts is probably about right.

I am not too keen on it being RA though.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: The Harbinger Bomber
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:42 pm 
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3 Phoenixes cost 400 points.  Those stats are undeniably better than them.

The proposed stats are much tougher, even with the possibility of a critical.  The firepower needed to take it down will be roughly the same as 3.4 Phoenixes (guesstimate - I didn't crunch numbers), but because it is a WE, there is no degradation in firepower.  Also, the proposed stats have effectively 360 AA5+ (left/right arcs) at 30cm, giving it much better defense against interceptors.

It has close to twice the BP firepower but depending on the target may have several good shots worse than Phoenixes.  Even against optimal Phoenix targets, though, the extra Harbinger template should equal or better the difference in direct firepower.

If you figure both of those at roughly 25% better than the Phoenixes (which I think is conservative), that puts those Harbinger stats at a cool 500 points.

===

500 points of aircraft, subject to a single critical is problematic.  Everyone has seen a big air assault go down in flames on a lucky crit.  It usually means the game is effectively over.  This thing will have the exact same issue with luck being a determining factor, only worse, because it doesn't have the mitigating factors that air assaults do.

Powerful aircraft (especially WE aircraft) simply do not work in the Epic air system.  Even if you dial in the point cost dead on perfect, massive capabilities are dependent on a few all-or-nothing die rolls.  As such, it introduces a decisive factor based primarily on luck.

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