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AndrewG
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Post subject: Support Craft  Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 2:00 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 12:38 pm
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Location: Polbeth (west of Livingston), Scotland, United Kingdom
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And taking away support craft and making it a skimmer would mean technically another war engine could block LOS. I can see people just taking the model off the base and letting it sit on the board. You end up with this terrain hugging stealthy craft that hides behind buildings and such. It doesn't feel right to me.
I can imagine a manta doing that. Imagine you're facing overwhelming firepower: would you not want your manta to drop behind that handily placed Imperial city? If it's hugging the terrain then the targets it can hit with the railgun and ion cannons will be limited. For the warmachine blocking LOS: it would have to be a pretty wide warmachine to block LOS to the ends of the wings...
Plus you loose the whole looming ufo thing which is fantastic imagery!
Fun though that image is, would the Tau really leave a vital troop transport-support vechile just haning in mid air and vunerable to any AA guns pointed at the sky?
My favoured solution would be to change the warmachines type, so that it can act as a flyer AND a skimmer...
Type-------------------------Speed-------Armour-Close Combat-Firefight
War Engine, Aircraft---Bomber/20cm-----4+-----------X-------------4+----
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Notes: ...If the manta chooses to land, then on it's next activation it may choose to act as a skimmer with speed 20cm, following all rules for skimmers; If the manta is acting as a skimmer it may chooses to become an aircraft in the end phase and disengage using the normal aerospace rules.
A bit clunky, but gets the basics of my idea across.
Possible use of Manta:
1: Flys in, lands, drops of troops, becomes skimmer
2: "pops-up", provides fire support, moves to pick up a fromation under heavy fire
3: Flys to objective, drops of troops, "pops-up" and fires again, becomes flyer and disengages
4?: Comes back for another bombing run against an enemy formation
_________________
"No heretic is to far gone to seek redemtion, but no act of heresy is to small to escape retribution"
-Inquisitor Validus Proeliator
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Support Craft Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 11:16 pm |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
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Yes, we are going to use it as I said, lands (planetfall) like a dropship, moves like a skimmer. Hides (Hovers) behind hills, buildings, etc. (like a Titan), then pops ups (like skimmers) and fires ! We do the same for T/hawks and most Tau and Eldar AFVs. The skimmer/pop-up rating, makes them unique and a bit alien, and at the same time, like a helo-gunship. 
_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Moscovian
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Post subject: Support Craft Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 12:09 am |
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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
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Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
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Not exactly my vision of the Manta (or any support craft).
Personally I think the support craft (in some form) needs to be kept distinct from skimmers. Mantas are described as using almost all of their power just to maintain itself in the atmosphere. This doesn't sound like a machine that deftly pops up and down whenever the mood strikes it, regardless of whether or not it is being shot at. If the Tau wanted to keep their beastie from being injured, they would just maintain a distance from the enemy, not try to land it behind a grove of trees or have its belly scrape along the knolls as it precisely avoids enemy LOS.
The Manta IMO hovers menacingly, fires from a distance when in trouble, and closes from high above, pounding the enemy with massive fire.
_________________ author of Syncing Forward and other stories...It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.
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BlackLegion
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Post subject: Support Craft Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 2:11 am |
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
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Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
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@Moscovian: From your description it looks like a bomber aircraft which can transport troops but is largely immobile.
Eg it can use Planetfall but is immobile. It can turn on the spot and shoot, it can't assault (but lend support fire). And in the endphase can choose to disengage but has to use Planetfall to come back.
_________________ We are returned! http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
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Moscovian
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Post subject: Support Craft Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 3:37 am |
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Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
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Keep in mind I'm withdrawing my initial proposals. Neal and the others made arguments against it that I agree with. So, I'm convinced that support craft as an ability still needs to be around, but that its current form is a lot better than I originally gave it credit for. Does that make sense?
_________________ author of Syncing Forward and other stories...It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Support Craft Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 6:32 am |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA
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As always ... DWWFY ! 
_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Dobbsy
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Post subject: Support Craft Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:16 am |
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Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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I'm starting to wonder if we just upgraded the shielding on a manta whether the can-see/be-seen-by-all issue would go away to some extent. Instead of its current 6+/5+/4+ vs AT/MW/TK why not just go with a straight 4+ before armour which we could drop to 5+??. I always felt it a bit naff that massed lighter weaponry could knock a small starship out of the sky.
I think it would sort of balance out all the incoming fire vs no cover a bit more. Let's face it, far more shots can theoretically hit the manta than what a manta can put out in return fire due to the no cover rule.
Opinions?
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Moscovian
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Post subject: Support Craft Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:26 pm |
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Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
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Dobbsy, I'm not sure about the specifics of your proposal, but I do like the idea that the focus is on the Manta instead of the special rule.
I mentioned before that I have a vested interest in the support craft rule remaining simply because it is part of the Dark Eldar list. However, my concern goes beyond my dark kin. Support Craft as a special rule should be able to be applied to other units outside the Tau, and there may be lists or one-up units that are developed by players that wish to use this function as we did for the DE.
So your direction I agree with. If the Manta isn't holding up, change the stats and not the special rule IMO.
_________________ author of Syncing Forward and other stories...It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.
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Dobbsy
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Post subject: Support Craft Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 3:57 am |
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Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Moscovian - maybe that's the issue. Maybe we have a good set of rules for it as is, but the units themselves just need work???
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CyberShadow
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Post subject: Support Craft Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 7:35 am |
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
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Location: Singapore
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I do think that we should now view the Support Craft rules as something which could be applied to any units of this type. If there are Manta specific rules, they can be added to the Manta chart.
_________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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CyberShadow
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Post subject: Support Craft Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:09 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
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Location: Singapore
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I have kind of lost track of this, so this is my attempt, as 'custodian' of the Support Craft rule, to bring it all together.
The previous rule was:
Support craft remain high up in the air, this means they can always draw a line of fire to any target and vice versa, like aircraft. They also never block LOF to other units, including other support craft. They ignore terrain when moving and never count as being in cover, nor can they provide cover for friendly troops, as they are too far away from the ground. They can only deploy troops immediately after they have performed a planetfall. In an assault, they work exactly like skimmers.
Considered:
- jump packs and skimmers allowing close combat
Possibly too complicated, and other skimmers arent allowed to do this to skimmers.
- fire fight only in engages
Again, possibly too complicated.
- no crossfire allowed in either direction
Already covered using 'thick rear armour'. Also, this could be imagined as affecting the craft.
- remove first turn planetfall disembark
General agreement.
- self planetfall (not requiring a space craft)
Make this a seperate rule which could be combined with Planefall, or a stat note (my favoured solution).
- just make it a skimmer with planetfall
This would change the way that Support Craft units currently work, and change the imagery. I am against this on principle of making the smallest changes and keeping the feel of the units, but obviously open to listening to opinions.
So, it seems that the current incarnation is only with the changes of removing the disembarking on first turn restriction, and seperating out the self planetfall/not requiring space craft restriction.
Are we done?
_________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
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Moscovian
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Post subject: Support Craft Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:12 pm |
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Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Support Craft Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:21 pm |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA
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We're doing Planetfall & Skimmer ! 
_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Support Craft Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 pm |
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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