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Support Craft
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Support Craft
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:30 pm 
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Why can a Support Craft only drop off troops if it has used Planetfall that turn?

This is 100% counter to how (for example) Mantas operate in the background.



In IA:3, Mantas constantly shuttle back and forwards over the planet at low altitudes, dropping off troops and picking them back up again as they go.


What's so game-breaking about allowing Support Craft to drop off / take on units on every turn?

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orangesm
 Post subject: Support Craft
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:49 pm 
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I would say that it takes probably 15 minutes for a Manta to be loaded - so does that mean it would sit out a turn to load up more troops?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Support Craft
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:56 pm 
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I've always kind of thought it was silly.

If they can drop to the surface to unload troops while coming in at planetfall speed, surely they can do so at a normal operational status.

In fact, in one of my first Tau games I loaded up a Manta full of troops and used it just like a normal WE transport with no issues.  It's actually not very effective, imho, but I don't see any reason to ban it.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Support Craft
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:57 pm 
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In fact, in one of my first Tau games I loaded up a Manta full of troops and used it just like a normal WE transport with no issues.  It's actually not very effective, imho, but I don't see any reason to ban it.


That's pretty much my thought.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Support Craft
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:00 pm 
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I am a huge fan of the support craft, but always felt it needed some tweaking.  Taking that restriction off would be a good thing.  

My other thoughts from the past were
*Friendly troops could be in the 'shadow' of the support craft.  Javelin made a good case against doing that but it always struck me as something you should be able to work out.
*ZoC should be reduced or eliminated.  
*Ability to hold/contest objectives should be limited or eliminated.

I know these ideas could add way too much complication to the support craft, but I throw them out there to churn the ideas.  Perhaps somebody has a way of making these things work without complicating the unit.

Thoughts?

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Support Craft
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:31 pm 
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May bad, I should have been clearer.

/----oooo----\   Here is the manta  


x x x x x x x x   Should troops be allowed here?
___Here is the ground


I had played a game where I disembarked my Dark Eldar from the Executor (similar in design to the Manta) and they were underneath the support craft model.  This led to some confusion about overlapping Zones of Control, intermingling, etc.

Now Javelin was right in saying that you eliminate all confusion if you keep troops from embarking / sitting under the support craft.  Simple.  Problem solved.  But I would like to see if it is feasible to modify the SC so that some of these things are possible.

And my only reason for thinking that a Manta might not be able to hold an objective was based on its altitude, not its size.  If it spends the predominant amount of time up in the air it would be difficult to 'hold ground'.  However contesting I could see.

The SC rule currently appears in two lists and is being considered for other unit types.  I can easily see zeppelins and tyranid units incorporating this rule - maybe others.  That's why I'm bringing it up again.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Support Craft
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:44 pm 
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Another thing: If i'm allowed toplace troops "under" the support craft. Can they still be targeted by aircraft?

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Support Craft
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:55 pm 
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How about under a bridge?  Or an overhang?   :)

Seriously though, it is a good question that unfortunately pushes the SC back to 'just don't put anything under it' status. :(

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Support Craft
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:44 pm 
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I must admit that the Support Craft rule is something that I have wantedt to go back to since the last Tau revision. Part of this is to discuss the transport disembarking at any time situation. I am sure that there is a very good reason why the rules has disembarking on the planetfall turn only... I just cant recall exactly why!  :blush:

I would support having no troops in the shadow of a support craft, simply because of all of the trouble that it potentially causes - just think about sheltering from barrages, but not direct shots!

The only compromise that I could think of would be to have the 'footprint' of a support craft to be the small flying base/AI base. You cant put troops here anyway, and any troops not on the flying stand base are simply counted as out in the open (even where this would be counter to where the model actually is). I dont think that we can mess around with actually sheltering troops.

The objectives I could be persuaded either way on. On the one hand, any support craft is an fairly imposing presence on the battlefield, and would disuade enemies from the area. On the other hand, historically aircraft almost always find it impossible to actually hold ground without support.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Support Craft
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:29 pm 
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Keep up the good work boyz, I like the Manta, Orca, etc. ... but I'm still not totally sold on the rules ... yet ! :D

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Support Craft
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:02 pm 
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CS, you may have hit on something - there was a reason for doing it this way.  The only problem I have with the flying base usage is how big does it have to be? Can it be the small one or does it have to be the large one (not that too many people can balance a Manta on a small one).  What if they based it on something huge or irregular?

Let me throw this out to y'all as a thought:

FLUFF:Lacking large ground-based war engines like titans, the Tau make use of smaller spacecraft for ground support.  Unlike the much faster aircraft, they hover menacingly over the battlefield and act as a high-flying weapons platform.


RULE: Support craft remain high up in the air, this means they can always draw a line of fire to any target and vice versa, like aircraft. They also never block LOF to other units, including other support craft. They ignore terrain when moving and never count as being in cover, nor can they provide cover for friendly troops, as they are too far away from the ground.  They cannot claim objectives but may contest them. Support Craft have no Zone of Control, and ignore all other ZoCs.  Therefore they cannot participate in assaults (they can provide support to them, however).

The SC could literally fly undeterred over the entire battlefield, coasting and hovering over friendlies and enemies alike.  Because they ignore ZOCs they could never engage anyone in an assault, but could still be assaulted in a FF.

Part of me just loves this.  :D  The other part says I may just have to let this one go; Javelin was right, it just causes too many problems.   :(

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Support Craft
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:20 pm 
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I love that. Whenever I think of a MAnta I always think of a UFO, hovering over the battlefield, casting its shadow down and quite possibly blaring the xcom music out of its speakers :)

I personally would try it, indeed it would be a big incentive to use it. Cool stuff always overpowers the part of me that wishes to min max :)

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