(zap123 @ Apr. 12 2007,06:29)

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I think you need to look at the list a bit more closely. ?Chaos Marines don't have Thunderhawks. ?The CSMs can only take Deamons as Allies. ?The other major differentiator is the CSMs don't get Rhinos. ?This makes them quite different to the loyalist marines. ?They are no where near as mobile and importantly a Chaos Marine army can get a company with a maximum break of 10 and even that is by taking the massively expensive Terminator Company, while loyalists can double that with Tac/Assault/Battle/Dev companies. ?Loyalists armies can soak up much higher casualties before giving up any points, while Chaos need to wade in and make sure they are killing lots early or they will lose. ?

Also note, this isn't new. ?CSMs were able to take any Space Marine support card back in the SM2/TL days. ?I can still recall the whoops of delight from our Chaos players when they put that rule in the White Dwarf .

(zap123 @ Apr. 12 2007,10:44)

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The current ruleset is NetEpic 5.0. ?There have been lots of changes from V4.0.

Yes, the changes to what Choas Marines were allowed to take were made in a WD Q&A session before Titan Legions was released.

Yes, Chaos could definitely take Warlords (this was a standard support card in Renegades....a Khorne player could take a Lord of Battles with 5 Warlord Titan support cards!), and there were Chaos Titan Battlegroup cards released in Citadel Journal.

(netepic @ Apr. 12 2007,12:08)

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As a Dark Angel player - I would contest that , I shred my mates Chaos army .

(darkangel @ Apr. 12 2007,12:15)

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(darkangel @ Apr. 12 2007,12:15)

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and how did you do? with lucky dices...

(netepic @ Apr. 12 2007,13:05)

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I make my own luck.

Namely using:

Imperial Guard Artillery company as my allied quota
Raven Wing to provide me with mobility.
Space Marine infantry companies, particularly the battle companies

Firstly, I always max out my company cards, support cards are for specialists only, I like the company discounts and in general i'm willing accept the loss of flexibility I suffer from using them.

The Imperial Guard Artillery company never fails to provide a mighty boost to my firepower, I mean come on - a few Chaos Marine Whirlwinds are unlikely to provide much counter artillery suppression. If he chooses to take allied Cannons of Khorne, then he is cutting down on the nasty daemon support that he would usually be taking and i'm more than happy for him to attempt to outshoot my Guard. He'll fail.

The Raven Wing is excellent at letting me react instantly to his deployments and allows to direct concentration of force where ever it is needed, minimising loses and maximising the damage done to his tiny little formations. His only larger formations are made up of pretty paltry low quality troops, easily scattered by marine infantry.

Speaking of which the Battle Company. How I love it . Even the basic tactical detachment is able to defeat a Chaos Space Marine detachment in a straight fight. The rhinos perform excellently as bullet shields when the marines deploy around an objective, prior to that they are awesome free battle taxi's allowing me to concentrate my forces on one section of his line and roll up it when it crumbles. The Rhino is the one defining attribute of modern Marine tactical goodness. Devestators out range the Chaos Marines and can turn them into dog meat, Assault Marines are superb for retaking objectives once you've softened up your defenders.

Trust in your infantry and your free mobility - the Chaos Marines have to pay a fortune to try and match your mobility. Yes, they have simularities, but then they are decended from the same army. Chaos is a balanced force, particularly in V5, but the Marines are also.

(darkangel @ Apr. 12 2007,13:22)

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ok, you take companies and the cahaos play has none and so you can increase your break point...but

..as a chaos player i take:

land speeder like you

bikes like you

attelery in the form of a worlord titan and two barrage missles

aad your space wolves company...and your mobility? hey I am the chaos player and I have a thunderhawk...mobility and reaching you is not the problem...

and then I take some land raider, some predators

hey and do you know that this are only marine units...without adding my own units which no other army could take...

(netepic @ Apr. 12 2007,14:37)

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As a Dark Angel player my Land Speeders and Bikes are in the Ravenwing - so I get a discount. You could get a Chaos Marine Bike Company to compensate, but that has no land speeders, you would have to get them in an undiscounted support card.

You can get a titan, but Titans in my eyes are just fire magnets, I can run rings round it. I rarely go above a Reaver sized titan if that.

Space Wolves company? As a Dark Angel player I would never field pup's even as allies - yuck.

You still lack the flexibility of Marine companies and you don't get Rhino's in your companies.

I don't understand how you managed to get a thunderhawk - I just double checked, and as a Chaos Marine player, you could get Dreadclaw Assault Shuttles as allies IF your opponent consents, but that is the only flying transport - no Thunderhawk. V5 is somewhat different to V4.

To summerise, you potentially could try and match me for mobility, but you'd be paying over the odds for it. I wouldn't ? .

(netepic @ Apr. 12 2007,14:59)

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You have an allied quota - could use that to get Tech Guard, i'd rather use it to get a Guard Artillery Battery though.