Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 3
  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

Bad experimental rule?
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Bad experimental rule?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:09 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
I have to say, I really dislike the experimental rule that lets the defending player choose which of his enemy's shots are placed onto the various models of his formation.

I dislike it largely because (For example) when a Warlord Titan fires you end up with the Volcano Cannon's TK hit being the first hit to impact against a Titan class unit (And thus harmlessly blatting away shields), while the weaponry that should have been stripping away shields is left to bounce off the enemy's armour.

In the original rulebook, the titan would have behaved sensibly (Saved the Volcano shot until last) but under the new rule, well, it behaves like a fool, wasting its most powerful shot first of all.


I'd just like to hear a clear justification as to why this rule should be adopted into the core rules... why is the method of hit allocation being changed from a 'simulation' mechanism (Where neither player had control of what hits went where) to a 'gamey' mechanism ('Gamey' being a very bad term in most wargaming circles, barring obscene powergamers).

So, apparently it's going into the core rules and the debate was held long ago...  ???

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Bombot
 Post subject: Bad experimental rule?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:22 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:06 pm
Posts: 348
Location: Reading, UK
Huh hum?  As I said the other day, my Warhound?s Plasma Blastgun ends up shooting nothing better than Ork Boyz as it is.  So now it will end up shooting Gretchin?!?

I don?t like that change either.  It?s counter-intuitive - a big no-no as far as I?m concerned unless there?s a really good reason for it.

_________________
"The Hoff isn't just a person - he's a state of mind, a kind of higher power"
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Bad experimental rule?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:30 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
So now it will end up shooting Gretchin?!?


Exactly, while MW hits used to go deep into a formation (Because they were allocated late on), now the defending player can allocate them to anything he likes, so yes, all TK & MW hits will go to gretchin, gaunts, etc.


Let alone the 'rotating macros' tactic, where the defender allocates several MW hits all to a single base, because a small formation has taken a bunch of AP/AT hits and a couple of MW hits.

It's 'gamey' and it's wrong. :(




_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Bad experimental rule?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:46 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
I really dislike this rule too...even on the receicving end of the shooting.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Chroma
 Post subject: Bad experimental rule?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 06 2007,17:09)
QUOTE
In the original rulebook, the titan would have behaved sensibly (Saved the Volcano shot until last) but under the new rule, well, it behaves like a fool, wasting its most powerful shot first of all.

To quote myself from this thread.

"In my mind, that would be two separate attack actions, the first to strip shields/defences, and then the next to blast the target with the big gun.

Does the Princeps not fire the Volcano Cannon if the target's shields/fields aren't dropped by the "lesser" weapons?

Since the game isn't as hyper-detailed as "reality", we as players don't have to worry about energy levels and whether proper blessing were given to weapons, etc, etc, concerns the commanders on the ground would have to take into account; they wouldn't always just unload everything in every attack. As well, I doubt, say, when fighting Gargants, the Titan crew knows "Oh, that Gargant has precisely 5 Power Fields", I think it would probably a lot more messy than that, so things that look clear to us with our Emperor's Eye view wouldn't be so cut-and-dry down in the meat-grinder... but, like I said, it's a game so it needs to be simplified."

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Chroma
 Post subject: Bad experimental rule?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:06 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 06 2007,17:30)
QUOTE
Exactly, while MW hits used to go deep into a formation (Because they were allocated late on), now the defending player can allocate them to anything he likes, so yes, all TK & MW hits will go to gretchin, gaunts, etc.

One of the tricks to counter this is not to fire your MW attack at units in cover when firing at a mixed Inf/AV formation: ?most people place their Inf in cover against their vehicles, so now the MW can't be allocated to them and take out tanks, etc, instead.

As well, in the new hit allocation rules, any TK attacks *must* be allocated to any war engines in the target formation first.




_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Bad experimental rule?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
This experimentalrule makes titans even more powerful:

As well, in the new hit allocation rules, any TK attacks *must* be allocated to any war engines in the target formation first.


This sounds a lot worse as the first wording. Now your are really forced to waist TK attacks against shields.




_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Bad experimental rule?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:12 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

(Chroma @ Feb. 06 2007,18:04)
QUOTE
To quote myself from this thread.

And as I said in that thread, such an argument makes the supposedly experienced Titan Crews look like complete idiots.

Proper fire control is just about the most essential component to any intelligent battle strategy, but this new rule makes every unit out there look like green recruits.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Bad experimental rule?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:13 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

(BlackLegion @ Feb. 06 2007,18:10)
QUOTE
This experimentalrule makes titans even more powerful:

As well, in the new hit allocation rules, any TK attacks *must* be allocated to any war engines in the target formation first.


This sounds a lot worse as the first wording. No your are really forced to waist TK attacks against shields.

Yep, TK / MW weapons are being massively downgraded.

This is a *huge* change.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Chroma
 Post subject: Bad experimental rule?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:38 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 06 2007,18:12)
QUOTE
And as I said in that thread, such an argument makes the supposedly experienced Titan Crews look like complete idiots.

E&C, you're Harbish over on SG? ?Good to know.

Well, again repeating: to me that is *two* attack actions, one to strip the shields, the second to get the "big gun" attack in.

That's fire discipline, ensuring the shields are down before firing the main weapon.

In the abstraction of the game, in a given attack action, everything is fired "at once"; why should the "application of hits" order be more advantageous to the attacker than the defender? ?Neither side has a claim as "more valid" in the context of the game, other than the (out of context) quote of "Generosity rules where 6mm soldiers are concered!"

As I asked in the other thread, if the shields/defenses aren't "down" does the Titan still fire its Volcano Cannon? ?The "gamey" response is "Yes!", because you, as a gamer, know you can still strip shields and get through and then fire again next "turn", while the Princeps doesn't have a rulebook in front of him so he knows how many Power Fields a Great Gargant has nor a concept of "turns". ?The "sim" response is "No", because he (or she, are there any examples of female Princeps?) would concerned about conserving the energy needed to power the big weapon systems.




_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Bad experimental rule?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:48 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
To get really fluffy on ya, Titan commanders are quite aware as to the power of enemy Gargant's shield strength. :)

So the fluff justification doesn't work.


The only justification you can make is that this change makes for a better game.

I don't believe it does, because it moves Epic away from a Simulation of war in the 40.000th millenium and more towards an Abstract 'game'.


Plus, all the MW hits go to Gretchin. :(

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Chroma
 Post subject: Bad experimental rule?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:50 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 06 2007,18:48)
QUOTE
Plus, all the MW hits go to Gretchin. :(

What MW attacks are you firing at Boyz Mobz anyway?

You should be using those on Blitz Brigades and Kults of Speed!   :alien:

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Irondeath
 Post subject: Bad experimental rule?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:33 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:36 pm
Posts: 653
To me, the very idea of that Volcano Cannon shot being just one single blast is wrong.

E:A doesn?t work like that. Rolling that 2+TK(D3) represents the Warlord or whatever firing several times over the cause of the turn. The idea of "saving" that TK until the shields are down is just inappropiate.

_________________
Visit www.epic-battles.de the ultimate german epic site&forum!
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 3
  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net