Marauder - where has it gone? |
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orangesm
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Post subject: Marauder - where has it gone?  Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:45 am |
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I was looking through some of the list in development and some that are fairly solid.
Big thing I noticed was that the lists (Elysians, Death Korps, and ATML) lack the Marauder Bomber. During the summer their was a discussion of improving the flyer in some way as it seems underpowered.
All those list have the Marauder Destroyer in them. Is there a reason that the Marauder was left out?
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redsimon
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Post subject: Marauder - where has it gone? Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:15 am |
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AFAIK, yes. Reason one would be that the Destroyer should be in some lists so that you can use the Forgeworld miniature, reason two would be variety and reason three background. I like the background for the Destroyer in the AMTL list, though I would never choose one.
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orangesm
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Post subject: Marauder - where has it gone? Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:52 pm |
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But how does not including the standard version lead to this variety?
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redsimon
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Post subject: Marauder - where has it gone? Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:02 pm |
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The lists that are used frequently (Codex Marines and IG) have just the regular Marauder. I think the other lists should add variety on the tabletop with just the Destroyer as an option.
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orangesm
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Post subject: Marauder - where has it gone? Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:23 am |
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But that means that in those list that have just the Marauder Destroyer, they have no true bomber aircraft. I would think the best way to add variety to the tabletop would be to have an expanded Imperial Navy support list for all Imperial List.
So the Imperial Navy support Category would include all the aircraft, not just one block or another. Why is it that the Siege Regiments of Krieg can get air support from Lighting squadrons, but not Thunderbolt squadrons? Why can't a Steel Legion Regiment call in a Marauder Destroyer for support, while the Elysians can't call in a Marauder Bomber to level an area before the Elysians make an assault?
I think providing players with options would create the variety.
Yes the Marauder bomber needs an upgrade of some kind. We shall see.
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redsimon
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Post subject: Marauder - where has it gone? Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:11 pm |
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I don't know the other lists, but AMTL has the option of artillery Titans and also small field guns, so they don't actually need "true" bombers.
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orangesm
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Post subject: Marauder - where has it gone? Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:04 pm |
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But does that not limit the AMTL list?
Why should two players who play the same list nessecarily have basicly the same army?
Excellent example is the variety in just the Steel Legion Artillery Company choice. Either a slower larger bombardment by Manticores or a steady bombardment by Basilisk. Players may debate various choices of those, but each player can choose their strategy.
I would want to extend this to including as many options for players when using Imperial Navy assets.
While each list should be representative of the original concept (Elysians, Death Korps, Black Templars, White Scars, etc), but excluding units that normally support the army to provide variety does not seem a good thing.
I am definitely up for trying to improve the Marauder to make it capable of competing with the Basilisk and Manticores or Artillery Titans.
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redsimon
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Post subject: Marauder - where has it gone? Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:48 am |
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I forgot that AMTL has also the option of fielding the Ordinatus Golgotha, probably the best artillery unit of the list.
Anyway, I think the purpose in that list was to focus on the Titans, hence the limit. That was why only one Ordinatus per army was allowed and the Knights can only be fielded as Auxilia.
As for Steel Legion and Artillery: IG needs the artillery if it is not a special regiment such as the Elysians.
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orangesm
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Post subject: Marauder - where has it gone? Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:50 pm |
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I also noticed that the Marauder Destroyer has the same amount of BP as the core Marauder, which should not be true.
This explains why the other list lack the standard Marauder as it is the same as the Destroyer, except the Marauder has more weapons, with a cost increase.
Odviously the Marauder needs its own champion.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Marauder - where has it gone? Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:34 pm |
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The Marauder in the Death Korps & Elysian lists lack BP weapons entirely, but are more heavily loaded down with missiles.
The AMTL version of the Marauder Destroyer does indeed run somewhat counter to the background (Where it should have a significantly smaller payload than the Marauder).
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orangesm
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Post subject: Marauder - where has it gone? Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:27 pm |
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I also thought we were trying to keep vehicles the same from list to list at least by pattern.
So the Marauder Destroyer should be the same in both list.
I can see the Adeptus Mechanicus having their own heavier varient, but this should be something else and not cost the same as the standard Naval Marauder Destroyer.
I think we should also include all Naval Aircraft in all the Imperial List.
Imperial Navy Aircraft
Thunderbolts
Lightings
Stirke Lightings
Marauders
Marauder Destroyers
Imperial Navy Support
Lunar Cruiser
Dictator Cruiser (3 BP Orbital Bombardment, capable of Planetfalling Aircraft)
Tyrant Cruiser (All 6 BP Orbital Bombardment, no pinpoint)
Gothic Cruiser (2 x Pin-Point Attack)
Emperor Battleship (8 BP Orbital Bombardment, capable of Planetfalling Aircraft)
Possibly expand this list to include other flyers should we see fit.
The same might also be done for the Titans available to all Imperial Forces, have major varients stats all in one place. The actual list would not change.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Marauder - where has it gone? Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:54 pm |
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So the Marauder Destroyer should be the same in both list.
I took the points & stats of the Marauder Destroyer from the Elysian list for the Death Korps list... although not 100% consistant with the background (I agree with IA:3 that there could be a one-shot BP payload) it's far more consistant than the AMTL list's Destroyers.
I think we should also include all Naval Aircraft in all the Imperial List.
Aircraft.
Starships.
While I'm a fan of having large, multi-featured lists, this runs counter to Epic: Armageddon's 'small and focused' list ethos, and as such, having 5+ different* aircraft types available to anything other than an Amerigonian 8th Airforce army list would be out of place in Epic's 4th edition.
* There's some upcoming ForgeWorld aircraft like the Arvus Lighter.
The same might also be done for the Titans available to all Imperial Forces,
Check my .sig for what i believe is the most elegant way to do that. 
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orangesm
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Post subject: Marauder - where has it gone? Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:25 pm |
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While I'm a fan of having large, multi-featured lists, this runs counter to Epic: Armageddon's 'small and focused' list ethos, and as such, having 5+ different* aircraft types available to anything other than an Amerigonian 8th Airforce army list would be out of place in Epic's 4th edition.
Ok so why include the Lighting and Lighting Strike in the Krieg List? The Thunderbolt seems to be a better fit for the Army and would keep the list short.
The Lighting is primarly an Air Superiority Aircraft and would rarely go hunting for mud targets. The Strike Lighting is the mud hunter of the two. Why include the Lighting
I am very much in favor of having variety seen on the table top, but aside from Air & Space power junkies like myself, a player who wants multiple armies may not want to have multiple aircraft formations available. (Why I am going to play AI.)
Staying tight and focused list should be done, but I would think this pretains largely to the army itself, not nessecarily the support formations (that 1/3 of the Army).
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: Marauder - where has it gone? Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:05 pm |
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Ok so why include the Lighting and Lighting Strike in the Krieg List?
They're in there purely to provide a little variety... and are most likely good candidates for replacement with the Thunderbolt... if the list is ever to be considered for Experimental status anyway*, as a way of keeping the list focused as you say.
*That'll like-as-not never happen anyway since there's only been a small ammount of interest from the ERC side of things.
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redsimon
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Post subject: Marauder - where has it gone? Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:22 am |
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Huh, I didn't know there were different versions of the Destroyer published. This should be changed.
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