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Titan Weapons Poll 2
Titans should be priced in 'patterns', with a total of four or so configurations for each Titan type. 64%  64%  [ 25 ]
Titans should have a cost for each weapon. with a total of thousands of possible combinations for each Titan type. 33%  33%  [ 13 ]
I don't care, but I like to vote! 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 39

Titan Weapons Poll 2
nealhunt
 Post subject: Titan Weapons Poll 2
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:36 pm 
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I agree with Honda.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Titan Weapons Poll 2
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:00 pm 
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(tchristney @ Sep. 26 2006,04:15)
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Even if the end decision is to use weapon patterns, a cost per weapon titan construction system is not a wasted effort. It can be provided to players for non-tournament games, and it can be the basis from which the tournament-approved patterns themselves are designed and balanced.

My thoughts exactly... the modular cost list could well work well as the basis for pattern varients.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Titan Weapons Poll 2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:34 am 
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*bump for more votes*

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Titan Weapons Poll 2
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:52 pm 
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I'm for patterns for non-AMTL armies and for variable weapons for AMTL armies.

As for patterns i would benice to have one pattern for each combat role: 1 good against infantery, 1 good against tanks, 1 good against WE, 1 jack-of-all-trades, 1 CC-Monster, 1 FF-monster.

Perhabs introducing the old titanvariants for Adeptus Titanicus days? Faster Titans with less voidshields and less/lighter weapons (to finally become your WarlordTitan into basecontact with its opponents)?

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Invid
 Post subject: Titan Weapons Poll 2
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:37 am 
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What about combining both?

You could build (similar to the ATML list) several types of Titans (eg. close combat titan), then for each type you could have a predefined list of weapons that type could choose from, to refine the type of titan you want

Taking the above example again. You could have your close combat titan type, and choose between a chain fist to make it CC specialised or a Laser burner to make it FF specialised.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Titan Weapons Poll 2
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:55 am 
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(Invid @ Sep. 29 2006,04:37)
QUOTE
What about combining both?

You could build (similar to the ATML list) several types of Titans (eg. close combat titan), then for each type you could have a predefined list of weapons that type could choose from, to refine the type of titan you want

Taking the above example again. You could have your close combat titan type, and choose between a chain fist to make it CC specialised or a Laser burner to make it FF specialised.

I had been thinking of building a small ammount of variation into some patterns ala the Warlock Titan or Gargants.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Titan Weapons Poll 2
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:10 am 
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Standard Patterns is my vote ... but 6-8 per type. And Black Legion has a good template, armed for combat role ...

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kr00za
 Post subject: Titan Weapons Poll 2
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:19 am 
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I voted for the second option coz I like custom Titanz n dont like to be limited :;):

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tneva82
 Post subject: Titan Weapons Poll 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:32 am 
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Pattern. Modular weapon system is impossible to balance to be as balanced as rest of army lists. Why introduce broken element into the game?

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Titan Weapons Poll 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:00 pm 
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The problem I see with the "New" E:A system, if we could call it that, is ... well just does not work, IMO. The AT1/SM1 system is what we still use ... decide before the game if Titans will be used. Then use 25% of your total Force level to "buy" Titan(s), CAS, SM1 Off Board Spt system (OBS) ... 4000 pts per side = 1000 pts of Titan(s) and/or CAS/OBS (per side) ?! ?:D ? We modified it based on E:A - 33% on Titans/CAS/OBS ... it works and there is no problem with "balance" ... IMO ! ?:D ?So I'd use most of the points on a Titan, say 750, 150 on CAS, 100 on OBS ... for example ...




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Titan Weapons Poll 2
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:14 pm 
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Eh, I think my modular points system works about as well as any other I've seen for Epic:A.

That doesn't mean I won't get back to this when I get back from Yank-Land however. :)

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Titan Weapons Poll 2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:31 am 
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Yank-Land ?!  Where's that !? :;):

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Titan Weapons Poll 2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:52 pm 
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For existing lists, I think that patterns would be better.  They're just easier to balance.

I don't have an opinion on the AMTL list one way or the other.  While the modular view has it's attractiveness, the flip-side is that you can end up with some really gross combinations (like the Fire Support Reaver with a Fire Control head.  How many BP is that again?) that are hard to balance as well as the rest of the army lists are balanced.

To use other games as an example:  Warmachine has fixed patterns, and is pretty well balanced.  Classic Battletech is pretty modular (Clan Omnimechs, anyone?), but the Battle Value system is BROKEN, in that it does not relate the Inner Sphere and Clan tech levels well at all.  It works marginally for Sphere v Sphere or Clan v Clan fights, but just doesn't work at all when you mix techs on the battlefield.  The way that Clan technologies work synergistically together is FAR in excess of the appropriate BV of each individual system (since those BVs were chosen to balance the Clan tech if installed in a Sphere mech, or against the comparable Sphere system).  Clan Tech is lighter and less bulky that it's Sphere counterpart, in addition to being longer ranged and having a higher damage output.  Since Clan armor is lighter and less bulky for the same protection, Clan mechs are better armored.  Even though Clan weapons generate more heat, their low bulk and mass free up space for Clan double-heatsinks, which are 2/3rds the size of the Inner Sphere versions.  All that makes a synergistic effect where I can reasonably expect a Clan 75-ton Mech to go toe-to-toe with a 100-ton Sphere mech (with wildly different Battle Values).

Most fleet games are fixed patterns possibly with some 'wargear' upgrades, because it's easier to balance.

*****************

I think it's worth trying to get the modular system balanced for the AMTL, but it's going to take someone who's TRYING to break the system to generate discussion points (similar to how GW's "build-a-'fex" works).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Titan Weapons Poll 2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:05 pm 
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How many BP is that again?


9BP @ 770 points, IIRC. :D

Warmachine has fixed patterns, and is pretty well balanced.

Isn't Warmachine only 'balanced' because every warjack is completely 'broken', leaving everyone on an equally broken level footing?

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Titan Weapons Poll 2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:32 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 31 2006,20:05)
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How many BP is that again?


9BP @ 770 points, IIRC. :D

Ouch, especially if the AMTL player doesn't take any Warlords.  Leave that Reaver as your BTS, and it's just about guaranteed to survive the battle (since it won't have moved off your baseline!).

Warmachine has fixed patterns, and is pretty well balanced.
Isn't Warmachine only 'balanced' because every warjack is completely 'broken', leaving everyone on an equally broken level footing?

Not really.  In Warmachine, victory comes down to which player uses his army better.  You can have an 'uber' army and still not be able to do much with it, simply because you aren't using every part of the army in the best possible way to make a synergistic whole.  Warmachine is a game built around the idea of stacking abilities to unstoppable effect, but it's like a row of Dominoes.  If I take out one or two key pieces (or even just keep them out of position), it's much easier for me to win, sometimes even outright impossible for the opponent to win (although I have to admit that sometimes even the best planning and positioning won't help when the Daemon Murphy decides to take Lady Luck for a dance).  

Warmachine is hard for new players because you need to be in the minset of 'if I use this unit to support this Jack, and put this ability onto this other Jack, when my caster pops his feat I can roll up an entire flank of an army, and then take out his (caster, uberjack of DOOM™, etc).

Epic doesn't quite work to that same level of synergy, but it's similar.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to balance a modular weapons system when you're dealing with multiple models, but it's not going to be easy.

Two MRL-reavers and a sextet of Warhounds is right about 2700 points.  How fun would that be to play against in a tournament, when both big Titans are holding TSNP and BTS, in addition to a Blitz for the opponent?  In addition, 4 Warhounds are going to be rampaging across the flanks of the opponents army (armed for shredding mixed AP/AT formations), and the last 2 are going to be armed heavy, with Plasma or other TK weapons, for popping SHTs and/or opposing Titans.  I'd organize it for 6 activations (Reaver, Reaver, 2 pairs of Warhounds (the flankers), and 2 single Warhounds (the heavies)).  

What do you think?

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