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Variable titan configuration
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:47 pm 
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Earlier edition Titans always were the stopgap measures for armies, they did provide Marine-only armies with TK abilities... and you paid for the privilige.


That's what the variable points project is all about... making it as it was, making exploitative Titan combinations more expensive to prevent cheap breaking of lists, with universal costings for all Imperial factions.

That's how Titan Legions did it, that's how Netepic does it. From my perspective, the system works.


As an example, Hena's 2 Volcano, 2 Turbolaser Titan.

Under the one size fits all costings scheme, such a Titan costs 850 points.

Under the modular costs system, the Warlord goes up to 895 points.

The Marines lose their potentially useful Gatling Blaster in exchange for a single TK(D3) shot, and they pay nearly 50 points extra.


Balanced? Possibly. Might need some ajustment.

Moreso than just using the AMTL list's Titans? Possibly...


EDIT:

For those who ain't aware of what I'm blathering on about.




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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:52 pm 
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Yeah, but he's suggesting that the weapons are pointed in such a way as to be fair even when used by the army it is most useful for.

So a SM commander might be tempted to take the config you suggested (and would be pointed appropriately), and IG commander might want to take something else, as that would be less point-effective than using shadowswords.

However, my problem is exactly that this system encourages you to 'fill the gap' in your army. A SM commander is best off taking a weapon fit that most complements the SM army, as any weapon fit that is more useful to another army will be overcosted!

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:02 pm 
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So a SM commander might be tempted to take the config you suggested (and would be pointed appropriately), and IG commander might want to take something else, as that would be less point-effective than using shadowswords.


And there's nothing wrong with that.

It's certainly better than having Titans undercosted across the board (As it is with just using the AMTL list Titans).


However, my problem is exactly that this system encourages you to 'fill the gap' in your army.

We have that situation in friendly games currently, but modular costings at least makes people pay to fill that gap.


A SM commander is best off taking a weapon fit that most complements the SM army, as any weapon fit that is more useful to another army will be overcosted!

What's better, universally undercosted Titans ala using the AMTL Titans due to overly-effective synergies, or a system where players pay appropriate points costs when they fill a gap?

The other Epic systems have used points-for-weapons for a reason.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:36 pm 
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What's better, universally undercosted Titans ala using the AMTL Titans due to overly-effective synergies, or a system where players pay appropriate points costs when they fill a gap?


Since you're talking about house rules, you can obviously do it any way you want.

I think LordI's point was that this means that a force will have only a couple "optimum" titan loads that go with it and other options will be too expensive because you're setting the point costs based on optimization.

That's just fine from a balance perspective but the net effect is that each force still has very limited titan choices, i.e. only those 1-2 configurations optimized for use with that force.  You're not adding very much in the way of real diversity.

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tchristney
 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:48 pm 
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Variable weapon cost is such an obvious thing to do, given the huge range in capabilities between the titan weapons. However, making every army pay a different amount for the same weapon is, IMHO, a path to madness. There are too many variables to really make it doable.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:56 pm 
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Since you're talking about house rules, you can obviously do it any way you want.


If we ever get Titan rules back, they'll no longer be house rules. :)



I think LordI's point was that this means that a force will have only a couple "optimum" titan loads that go with it and other options will be too expensive because you're setting the point costs based on optimization.

That's just fine from a balance perspective but the net effect is that each force still has very limited titan choices, i.e. only those 1-2 configurations optimized for use with that force.  You're not adding very much in the way of real diversity.

1-2 configurations is quite an overstatement IMHO.

Just because you can load up on a certain titan config doesn't mean everyone will load up the same.

We've been playtesting the modular titans in my local gaming group for a while now, and no two people take the same titan configurations in their list. Everyone has a personal preference.

I'd say the majority of weapons/combinations would be useful in some form with most lists.


You don't think a Firefighting-biased Warlord is all that useful to a non-AMTL army? Check how much cheaper it is... or how about a CC/Close assault Reaver? (Like Reavers are in the fluff).


ANY Epic armylist can be broken if you pry hard enough. The Thunderhawks & Landers, the Land Speeder circus, the heavy-bombardment Guard. The Siegemasters... (Sorry Chris!) :)


I'd like to help bring back Titans as they used to be, as they should be. Characterful, modular, and as balanced as possible. Modular costs is the only way to balance Titans for use with armies other than the AMTL.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:58 pm 
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(tchristney @ Sep. 13 2006,20:48)
QUOTE
Variable weapon cost is such an obvious thing to do, given the huge range in capabilities between the titan weapons. However, making every army pay a different amount for the same weapon is, IMHO, a path to madness. There are too many variables to really make it doable.

Titan Legions & NetEpic did them across the board... neither is regarded as particularly unbalanced.

The system is not perfect, but it should be self-regulating enough to make the Titans balanced.




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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:06 pm 
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For what it's worth, I'm also in favor of (and always have been) variable weapons costs.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:16 pm 
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I'm too.

I disliked the "essentially alle titans of the same class cost the sames regardless of weapons, because they are all balanced to eachother" from the beginning.

There should be titan weapons, which ARE better than other titan weapons...but will increase the price of the titan.

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tchristney
 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:19 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 13 2006,12:58)
QUOTE

(tchristney @ Sep. 13 2006,20:48)
QUOTE
Variable weapon cost is such an obvious thing to do, given the huge range in capabilities between the titan weapons. However, making every army pay a different amount for the same weapon is, IMHO, a path to madness. There are too many variables to really make it doable.

Titan Legions & NetEpic did them across the board... neither is regarded as particularly unbalanced.

The system is not perfect, but it should be self-regulating enough to make the Titans balanced.

I know, I wrote the first cut at the weapon costs for NetEpic back in my wayward youth.  :)  (I think I even have a formula around somewhere...)

What I meant was making a given weapon cost a different amount depending on the army list using it is a path to madness.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:26 pm 
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Hehe, sorry tchristney I should have spotted that, it's late and I'm busy prepping for an interview next week, I wouldn't be surprised if I start arguing that all Titans should cost the same in a while. :)

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CAL001
 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:36 pm 
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I to am in favor of variable weapon fits for titans in all armies, and recently made the same comment over at LATD aswell. I think a player should be able to choose the weapons he wants. We do it as house rules at the moment and as yet have not put points to it. We use the AMTL and pay for the hole titan and add the weapons we intend to use according to the limitations. I would be interested to see a list and points cost for this.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Variable titan configuration
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:11 am 
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Hey CAL, I and a few others have hashed out some points costs for Titans / Weapons over the past few months.

This is the latest thread, including a link to the points costs, upgrade costs etc. : http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....;t=7360

It gives points costs to all the currently existing weapons, plus recreates two or three old weapons.

For the most part the stats have been unchanged or just recieved minor nudges, although the Vortex Missile now operates more like it used to (With a dangerous vortex template hanging around on the board), and Warp Missiles have been brought back to life. :)

We've been playtesting this ruleset in my gaming group for the last month or so, and it seems balanced so far (That is to say, not noticably under or over powered).

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