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Changes for version 4.4.1

 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:51 pm 
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Ah, but Tau plasma and Eldar Starcannon are Strength 6.  Chaos/Imperial plasma is S7, and has a chance of blowing up.  At range, there's no difference between a Plasma gun's RoF and a Rail's RoF.  The Effective RoF only changes inside 12" (FF range for Epic).  Also, Rails have a 50% greater range than a plasma rifle, and equal to a heavy bolter, Imp Plasma Cannon, or Starcannon.

I also have a bit of an issue with 'sniping' tanks, but it would be a very interesting precedent to apply a Universal Special Rule to part of a weapon's effect.  It wouldn't be too hard to do, just have two lines for it's effect and a note to clarify, like the SM Dread.  The small AT rifles in WW2 are effectively Railrifles, having to pick their target spot very carefully in order to hurt later-war tanks, so it could easily be justified in the fluff, if we needed to.  

How does this look?

Pulse Carbines 15cm AP5+ Disrupt
Rail Rifles 30cm AP5+ Disrupt
OR
Rail Rifles 30cm AT6+
Notes: Scouts, Coordinated Fire, Markerlights, Snipers
NOTE:  Rail Rifles may fire as EITHER 30cm AP5+ Disrupt Snipers OR 30cm AT6+ without Disrupt or Snipers

fluff:
Pathfinder Rail Rifles are powerful enough to damage lightly armored vehicles, but need to fire on the weak points of the closest tank in order to have a reasonable chance of success.

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 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:37 pm 
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I vote for not adding AT to rail rifles.  Pathfinders have markerlights which are the Tau's infantry AT capability.

Orde





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 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:28 pm 
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(Lion in the Stars @ Jul. 20 2006,14:51)
QUOTE
How does this look?

Pulse Carbines 15cm AP5+ Disrupt
Rail Rifles 30cm AP5+ Disrupt
OR
Rail Rifles 30cm AT6+
Notes: Scouts, Coordinated Fire, Markerlights, Snipers
NOTE: ?Rail Rifles may fire as EITHER 30cm AP5+ Disrupt Snipers OR 30cm AT6+ without Disrupt or Snipers

fluff:
Pathfinder Rail Rifles are powerful enough to damage lightly armored vehicles, but need to fire on the weak points of the closest tank in order to have a reasonable chance of success.

Brilliant solution to the perceived problem. This actually addresses all of the issues.

Well done.

CS should take a look at this. I think you've captured exactly what the unit does here now.

'wave'

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 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:35 pm 
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Hena,

Moving the sniper is fine to the RR's AP shot, but the Disrupt should stay up there considering its what it does.

The AT version of the shot should not have the AT or the Disrupt ability though, that I agree with.

(Disrupt or no Disrupt on the RR AP shot is not worth holding up devleopment over though. It does cause pinning tests on wounded infantry though in core so worth a try conseptually first before removing it IMHO.)

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 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:43 pm 
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:returns salute:

Also, Pulse Carbines cause Pinning in 40k, and have Disrupt in E:A.  Since Rail Rifles cause Pinning in 40k, they should also have Disrupt in E:A.  

Fair enough, on the rest of the changes, Hena.  

Hey, CS!  Take a look!

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 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:28 pm 
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Sniper Rifles also have Pinning in 40K, but don't Disrupt in E:A. Basilisk fire causes Pinning, as do Mortars. There're lots of things in E:A which don't cause pinning in it which do in 40K... Whirlwinds are another good example. Eldar D-Cannons. Barbed Stranglers. Ranger Long Rifles.

The list goes on from there, if I searched hard enough. I'm sure I could find psyker powers which aren't accurately portrayed too. Basically ALL Sniper weapons in 40K cause Pinning, but don't in E:A because the Sniper power on it's own replicates their ability to take units out of the action...


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 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:24 am 
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OK, point taken.  Disrupt isn't really required on the Rails.

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 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:23 pm 
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Ilushia,

That's very insightful. I can't disagree.

With the sniper ability, I can support your request to start the trial without Disrupt on the Rail Rifle all together. Do to your case, I think its actually the right call.

:cool:

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 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:25 pm 
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OK, so going back to Lion's proposal with Ilushia's modification, that means Pathfinders would look like this then...



Pulse Carbines 15cm AP5+ Disrupt
Rail Rifles 30cm AP5+ Snipers
OR
Rail Rifles 30cm AT6+
Notes: Scouts, Coordinated Fire, Markerlights; Rail Rifles may fire as EITHER 30cm AP5+ Snipers OR 30cm AT6+ without Snipers


Fluff:
Pathfinder Rail Rifles are powerful enough to damage lightly armored vehicles, but need to fire on the weak points of the closest tank in order to have a reasonable chance of success.





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 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:57 am 
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Looks good.  Very clearly worded.  Just need to figure where in the Pathfinder fluff the Railrifle line would go.

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 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:56 pm 
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Very nice. I like that stat-line. Thank you for listening at least!  :laugh:  Now I just need to find someone here who plays Tau... Or start up my own army...


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 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:30 pm 
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Hey folks, I just played my first game with the Tau last night and I have to say... Uhm. Wow. ?I wiped out my opponent in two turns. ?There was no need to play a third turn. At all. Now there were some circumstances that led to his demise aside from the list, however...

Here are some of my initial thoughts about the Tau.

1. A fun list. ?As for reducing the special rules, have you guys though about removing the network drones? ?I mean, I understand there is a desire to improve them but they are already running a 62% win ratio. ?This would help keep the Tau on their toes.

2. Heavy drones. ?We were checking out the codex and it seems the 3+ is unsupported. ?Is there a reason for this monster stat? ?Maybe AP5+ or 2xAP5+ and marker lights would still be worth the cost.

3. Skyray. Uhm... 75 points for something that hits more often than a Hunter, has 15cm more range, twice the potential for damage, and can be embedded like a Hunter or Hydra. ?Seems a bit excessive. ?2 x AA6+ or a 60cm range would be fine with me.

4. There were, err, complaints about the Stealth first strike. ?I personally didn't see the problem, but I was not on the receiving end. ?They also hit with 4 out 6 (lucky for me) and he save 0 out of 4 (lucky for me again). ?Anyway, thought I'd post the opposing side's opinion.

That's it for the battle last night. ?My general feeling after reading this thread is there is little effort going toward reducing the Tau's capabilities even though they are winning 62% of the time. ???

Just throwing this out before any decisions are made to make more improvements. ?I like the list, but it seemed very easy to win with.

Thoughts?





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 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:45 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Jul. 29 2006,21:30)
QUOTE
Hey folks, I just played my first game with the Tau last night and I have to say... Uhm. Wow. ?I wiped out my opponent in two turns. ?There was no need to play a third turn. At all. Now there were some circumstances that led to his demise aside from the list, however...

Could we see the army lists you and your opponent used?

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 Post subject: Changes for version 4.4.1
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:09 pm 
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Since you didn't play a third turn, you probably didn't see the effects of accumulated blast markers essentially shutting down your armored formations. ? Before the Networked Drones were created, AHMCs were really vulnerable to BM supression. ?Networked Drones aren't really a special rule per se, they're a fluff explanation for how Tau command a formation of Tanks. ?Leader is needed for the Tanks to stay combat effective longer.

Heavy Drones come from Imperial Armor 3: ?Taros. ?Each Heavy Drone has either twinlinked burst cannons (which would be 15cm AP4+), or a Markerlight and a burst cannon (AP5+ and Markerlight) ?Put just two drones on a base, one of each, and you can legitimately have AP3+ and a Markerlight.

I need to get some playtest time with the Skyray, but it's been tested pretty thoroughly. ?In the fluff, Skyrays are supposed to virtually own the skies above Tau formations. ?It's effectiveness is about right, but I was pretty sure that it's point cost was close, too.

Stealth suits are nasty in 40k. ?They carry enough firepower to eliminate 80% of a guard squad with average rolls, in one shooting phase, without Markerlight support. ?They're even worse if you give them Targeting Arrays. ?With average dice, 6 Stealth suits will eliminate 10 guardsmen. ?You can also give them Shield Generators instead, and watch them bounce plasma, melta, and Lascannon fire (they don't get the Targeting Arrays though). ?Because of the Stealth field, they can dance around their weapon range and have a chance to not be seen at all. ?They also have Marine level armor, and are roughly equal to Assault Marines (or Tacs on the charge) in CC. ?In addition, Stealth suits count as always being in cover for the purposes of assault (always strike first, unless opponent has wargear to counter that). ?Like I said, Stealth suits are nasty.

If you're looking at the Battlestats site, there are some known problems with that program. ?The first couple Tau lists were hugely overpowered, and there isn't an easy way to remove the old list's games from the database. ?Also, if both players enter their games, it artifically distorts the statistics.

If your opponent has never faced the Tau before, the firepower Tau can put out is a very rude surprise, as is their mobility. ?If you can get him to play you again, I'll bet he's got some ideas to ruin your day with.

**********************

That reminds me. ?Since the new Codex came out, it has changed the way that Stealth suits are used. ?I would propose adding the Crisis suit's Fusion gun statline to Stealth suits, reducing the Multiple BC to AP4+

My proposed changes:
XV15 Stealth Battlesuit Team
Infantry, 25cm, 5+sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
Multiple Silenced Burst Cannons: ?15cm AP4+ Disrupt AND
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (15cm) Small Arms Extra Attack +1, First Strike
Twin-linked Fusion Blasters: ?15cm MW4+ AND
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(15cm) Small Arms Macro-Weapon
Notes: ?Tau Jet Packs, Scouts, Reinforced Armor, Markerlights, Teleport

This is exactly the same weapon as on a crisis suit. ?I had to add an extra attack to the burst cannons FF, unless we want to give the stand a First Strike Macro-Weapon attack. ?[shudder] ?It would be pretty close to how they work in 40k though.

I also propose adding an Invulnerable Save to the Broadsides, as Broadside + Shield Drone is a nigh-invulnerable combination. ?Broadsides are tougher than Terminators. ?They're also nearly the size of a Marine Dreadnought, and come in groups of 1-3. ?Also, there needs to be a fluff tweak to the broadsides. ?Railguns are _not_ Particle Accelerators, they shoot a solid slug. ?Also, I think that the last paragraph from the IA3 entry would be a good addition to the E:A fluff.

(Codex:Tau Empire @ page 27)
QUOTE
The Tau battlesuit railgun uses linear accelerator technology to project a solid projectile at hypervelocity. ?It is capable of piercing the thickest of armour and of taking down the largest of enemies. [snip 40k weapon stats]

(Codex: ?Tau Empire @ page 40)
QUOTE
Experienced veterans can wear Broadside battlesuits and are the most heavily armed of all Tau ground troops. ?Broadside Teams utilize a heavily modified version of the Crisis battlesuit armour. ?The standard jet pack is removed, which frees up weight for the incorporation of some extremely heavy weapon systems. ?Broadside teams must be able to engage and destroy heavily armoured targets, and, consequently, are equipped with the most devastating weapons in the Tau arsenal.


(Imperial Armour 3: ?The Taros Campaign @ page 175)
QUOTE
The XV8 Crisis battlesuit is by far the most common battlesuit encountered, but as far back as the Damocles Crusade the XV88 Broadside variant was identified by the Imperium's forces. ?The XV88 forgoes mobility and maneuverability in favour of heavy firepower, armed with it's distinctive long-barrelled twin railguns. ?Unlike the Crisis suits, which bear the brunt of Tau attacks, the Broadside supports Tau Fire Warriors with long-range firepower.

Those Fire Warriors that have progressed to the ranks of Shas'ui and have been trained in the use of the XV8 can choose to transfer into XV88 suits for additional training. ?Within the Fire Caste's military academies it is regarded as important that a Shas'ui should have experience on the XV88 before he can be promoted to the rank of Shas'vre. ?Some Crisis teams that have performed the Ta'lissera will transfer together and form a complete. bonded Broadside team. ?After serving their time piloting the XV88, the team will either return to the XV8 to complete their training or, if they have performed exceptionally well, they might be promoted straight to Shas'vre.

On the battlefield, the Broadside is a tank-hunter. ?Its railguns can cut through almost any armour, and it is small enough to utilize cover well. ?The distinctive whip-crack sound and hyper-sonic speed of a railgun became synonymous with the desert fighting on Taros.

Carried in Orcas or Mantas, once deployed Broadsides, lacking jetpacks, are slow, so must be deployed with care and only when an engagement was imminent. ?For accurate deployment Broadsides relied on good information from forward Pathfinder teams.

On Taros, Broadsides were widely deployed in support of Hunter Cadres on the defensive. ?They could not be deployed as part of the fast moving Pathfinder raiding forces, or armoured counter-attack forces which might be required to operate in the deserts for many days, fighting then quickly withdrawing, the nmoving to attack again. ?Instead, when an engagement was imminent, the Orcas or a Manta would quickly move the Broadsides into position, usually holding a ridgeline or an area of higher ground with good fields of fire. ?The Broadside could then target the enemy at maximum range, singling out enemy tanks and troop carriers, before being picked up again. ?Using these rapid deployment tactics, the Broadsides could lend their potent fire support, but not slow an armoured Hunter Cadre down as it raced to new positions for the next battle.

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