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E:A  Rise of the Dracon

 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:30 pm 
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Well, all that fluff didn't come from RT but from an official "40k prehistory" article. Maybe Sotek is a product of the WHFB Slann, which have degenerated (or evolved) to the point of having feelings as strong as those of the eldars...

Anyway, would you mind if i figure some stats for slanni cadres using their stats as shown in RT?

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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:21 pm 
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It seems that nobody complaints to my slann cares, so... here they go, with an explanation based on RT fluff:

Slann Warband (1-10 cadres)

Slann cadre
Type: INF
Speed: 15 cm (they are on foot)
Armour: 4+ (they wear flak jackets and force fields with an invulnerable 4+ save in 40k)
CC: 5+ (something like human gloryboys, as they have HA3 R4 I3 in 40k)  
FF: 5+ (lasrifles with aimers, so they FF like IG)
Weapons: D-Cannon   30cm   5+ MW (also with aimers)
Notes: Invulnerable Save

Maybe we could include the "They shall know no fear" rule...

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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:53 pm 
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would you mind if i figure some stats for slanni cadres using their stats as shown in RT?


We are happy to see new ideas.  You may have to input a summary of their fluff to get people on board with the idea though.

I'm sure most of us do not have access to the Rogue Trader books  
(I checked into your suggestion of getting it through emule, but I'm stuck with dial up, so this isn't likely to happen :( )

We have def. had to base most of our work on the WFB Lizardmen due to lack of actual 40k info.

My own personal view point is that the Lizardmen race we are working on is a seperate race from the OO, but possibly created in their image.  

We have to have a viable solution to the problem of the OO being extinct.  Fluff itself seems to be uncertain on the Slann being the OO and being absolute servents of the OO.  After sixty million years, who's to say historians aren't getting the 2 races confused.  :;):

Some liberties must be taken for this army to even exist.  

I like to think of them as having been created on the WFB world from creatures the OO found to be similar to themselves.  Then some of them taken to the stars to form an army to serve the OO.  

They were all but destroyed in the last OO war, but after sixty million years, have evolved and re-populated.  

Now they are once again a powerful force, but still genetically programmed with the OO's mission to protect the universe.

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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:13 am 
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The Old Ones did have a presence in the Warp they were just at one with the warp and the warp remained calm even though they had a presence there.  I think the Old Ones even had a communal warp presence, being able to see what the others did but not overrulled by a single mind.

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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:26 pm 
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Where do we stand on walkers?

Currently have 4, correct?  Varan, Verger, Velite, & Vorace.
Varan is long range fire power
Vorace is MBT
Velite is our Krox Dreadnaught/walker
Verger, what does this one do?


What types of walkers do we need?  Do we have enough?

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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:46 pm 
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Verger is currently our Artillery unit (Though that may change). I wouldn't really call the Varan all taht long-range, it's weapons are only 45cm range and it's only 15cm move-rate. It's a nice general-purpose unit, though. Tough to kill, good fire-power, reasonable in fire-fights. Essentially they're going to be your back-bone walkers. They can garrison, have good armor saves and nice ranged fire power. As good in FF as Tac-Marines are. But 6+ in melee. I was thinking they'd be in relatively small units, 6 strong or so.


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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:45 pm 
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Verger is currently our Artillery unit

Ok, that works for me.

Varan: Tough to kill, good fire-power, reasonable in fire-fights. Essentially they're going to be your back-bone walkers

Ok, just to help me get it clear, (and because I think we need to start building on the foundation we have) what makes the Varan distinct from the Vorace?  Besides being considerably slower that is.  What makes them both vital units?

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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:00 am 
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The Verger is weaker, defensively and offensively, then the Vorace is. As well as being slightly slower (The Vorace is 20cm move while the Verger is 15cm). It has shorter range main weapons (The Vorace has a 75cm Heavy Ion Cannon, whil the weapons on the Verger are only 45cm) and lacks the close-in punch of the Vorace (Having 3x Twin Heavy MG with 30cm range as well as that 75cm ion cannon). Does not have Reinforced Armor, and thus is more vulnerable to Macro Weapons then the Vorace is. Functionally this is your light battle tank. It's something to hold the forward line until the Vorace get there to back them up, but is easily defeated in melee by most enemies (Even IG could beat them I'd bet, just by locking them into melee with their front-lines and firefighting with the rest.)


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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:09 am 
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Sorry, there must have been a little mix up.  I was trying to determine the differences between the Voran (not Verger) and the Vorace.

Not that a little in depth breakdown wasn't enlightening. :)  Thanks.

In fact....

If it's not too much trouble Ilushia, since you established the stats on the units we have so far, maybe you could do an analysis of the combat roles, strengths and weaknesses for each unit.

Something similar to what you've done for the Verger above?

I think it would go along way to helping us to begin putting these into a list.

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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:12 am 
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That's a fairly tall order, but I'll give it a go.


Skinks: No armor saves, short-range (30cm) AP/AT weaponry, very very poor to-hit rolls, reasonable Firefight (5+). No special powers. These guys are your normal infantry, they hold down objectives, take objectives and absorb enemy fire-power. Much like Imperial Guard Infantry, in fact, and very similar in stats. Notable differences include weapons on every stand (Good), worse AP value(Bad). Probably will not be available in quite as large units as the IG Infantry is (I was thinking units of 8-10 or so).

Chameleon Skinks: Same move, better armor, better melee, better firefight, AP Sniper Weapon, First STrike, Infiltrators and Scouts. These guys are just all around nice, they're like IG Storm Troopers mixed with Warp Spiders. Best bet for deploying them? Either garrison them somewhere they can assault an enemy off an objective, or put them down near the normal skinks, let the normal skinks blow the enemy in assault, breaking the enemy, then use your sniper rifles to cause havoc on their moral  with cross-fire. Unit sizes: 6-8 bases.

Saurus: Good armor, good firefight, hefty anti-personal firepower. Now we start hitting the really specialized troops. These guys make excellent units to fight large units of enemy infantry, like IG, with 2x AP 5+ each, even at 30cm range, they'll cut through IG and Orks very very efficiently. They're reasonably defended and good in firefight, so they'll typically weather the kind of punishment they'll get back too. Cons: Small unit sizes. I'm picturing in the 6-8 bases area. Around the same size as the Skinks. No ATSKNF but they do have Cold Blooded which allows them to rally almost automatically every turn. Meaning keeping blastmarkers on them will be quite difficult (Well, not really. They have no Leaders, so you just have to place at least 2 each turn).

Saurus Guards: Generally better versions of the Saurus. In VERY limited quantities however. These guys are your Supreme Commander's personal body-guards. They do it all. Melee, range, firefight, they'll lay down loads of hurt and soak it up in return. The problem? You only get one formation of them in an army, and they include your Supreme Commander typically. Unit Size: 5-7.

Saurus Scarred Ones (Previously Kroxigores): These are your infantry heavy-weapons troops. Range comperable to Dev-Marines, as are their defenses. Very nice CC and FF values, not the best in the game however. At two shots per base with 45cm AP5+/AT5+ they'll lay down a lot of hurt, at resonable range. These guys are likely to be your general-purpose long-range hunting unit for the army. They're not as well defended as the Light Battle Walker is, but they can fight in CC effectively and have comperable amounts of fire-power. Unit Size: 4-6.

Kroxigore Assault Machines: Fast. Very fast. Especially compared to most of the rest of this list. These things top out at 25cm movement, and are your assault machines. A single heavy machine gun means that they aren't completely worthless at range, but with only a 30cm range and 1 shot each, they're unlikely to do more then scratch the paint on most targets... But they're very well defended with a 3+ armor save and quite fast, and hit on 3+ in melee with Macro-Weapons for each of them. Problems? They suck in firefight. 6+ to hit means if the enemy gets to choose the battlefield chances are you'll lose. Even with 3+ armor saves against many opponents. Unit Size: 4-6. Possible Changes: Anyone mind if I give these guys Infiltrator and cut back their move to 20cm? When I built them it felt right that they should move fast, so they could get to combat faster, but looking at them now they just seem like they motor way too much for their supposed job.

Light Battle Walker: These are your nice general-purpose tanks. They're armored, weaponed and fight basically like one would expect for a light battle tank. They'll soak up a lot of enemy fire before going down, mount quite nice weaponry but move slowly. Their weaponry lacks any majorly long range as well. On the upside, they can garrison forwards to stall for time. These are some of your best defensive units in the army, they're there to stall for time while the main forces arrive and deal out as much damage as possible. They have VERY nice long range shooting with 1x 4+/5+ and 1x 4+/4+ Lance. Both at 45cm range. Unit size: 6-8.

Battle Walker: Fast, Tough, Powerful, what's not to love? These are your main battle tanks, and it shows. 75cm 4+/4+ Lance weapon as it's main weapon and 3 30cm 3+/5+ weapons as it's secondaries. 3+ firefight, 5+ Close Combat and 4+ Reinforced Armor all make this machine a dangerous opponent. Combind with it's abilities to navigate difficult terrain many enemies will find them quite difficult to kill before they hit like the sixty tons of adamatine that they are. Unit size: 6-8.

Support Walker: This is your artillery, plain and simple. Armor isn't great, move speed is just passable, sucks in Firefight and Close Combat, and it's standard armament isn't that great. It's plus? It mounts a huge set of nine cannons it can use to pulverize the enemy. With 60cm range and Indirect Fire these can reach a vast portion of the board. WIth proper positioning these things will likely be at least as good as Manticores. Major con? They're Slow Firing, so you'll need to watch how much you throw out and when. Unit Size: 6-8.

"Light" Old-One Tank: Fast. Very very VERY fast. These things can keep up with the fastest units in the game at present with a 35cm move. They have a long-range Warp Cannon with 75cm range and MW 4+ for fire-power. Other then that they're only passable. 4+ armor, not reinforced and 6+ CC, 5+ FF, means you'll usually want to avoid being shot at wherever you can with these. They're your heavy-unit hunters. Use these guys to kill pesky things like Wraithguards or Russes. Not half bad for killing anything which becomes a target of opportunity either. Unit Size: 3-5(?)

Field Teleporter: These things are transports, really that's all they do. Their secondary armament is pathetic, and while they have reasonable defenses they'll never win in the assault. So use them to move your troops around, plain and simple. WHen put up in a unit of 2-3 these could be very powerful as they can spread out over a large portion of the board and allow relatively spread-out units to congregate together very very quickly. Unit Size: 1-3.

Old-One Missile Tank: Super-heavy artillery. Reasonably fast, very well defended, good range (Well, passable range when you factor in indirect fire). Major advantages? 3BP each, ignore cover and disrupt means that they'll break enemy units quite easily. A unit of 3 of these monsters would be extremely useful for going after broken enemy  units or breaking large formations like Ork Mobz and IG Infantry Companies. Generally speaking it'd be quite useful to have at least one in the army. Unit Size: 1-3.

Old-One AA Tank: It's anti-aircraft. Your only anti-aircraft at present (This is likely to change). The tank isn't half bad at killing other things either. It's a very solid AA platform currently possessing 45cm range and getting 2x AA4+ shots which are Macro Weapons. Against land targets it also has 45cm range and gets MW 5+ shots. Not as good as the light tank or the heavy tank for taking out enemies, I think, but very nice in it's specialized role. Unit Size: 1-3.

Old-One Heavy battle Tank: These are just monsters, straight up. 6DC, Battlescreens, heavy weapons. These are just generally very very scary things to fight. They'll punch holes in formations, enemy titans, whatever you feel like. They lack the massed fire-power of the Imperial or even Eldar titans to shoot down huge numbers of enemies, but whatever they fire on WILL feel it. And they can soak up massive quantities of fire in return thanks to updated Battlescreen rules. See the end of this post for current stats and rules on the Battlescreens (I decided they weren't good enough, and changed them) Unit Size: 1

Flying Temple: Tough, rugged, reasonably fast, skimmer, transports troops, throws out 3+ MW TK shots, and AA 4+ TK shots, plus 4BP Macro-Weapons. This is your true titan-equivilent. These things will absorb absurd amounts of fire thanks to their 8 DC, Regeneration and awesome saving-throws. Not bad in an assault either. I'd compare these things to being like a Warlord. Again lacking the mass fire-power but making up for it in defenses and high-powered long-range weapons. Unit Size: 1.

Saurus Cavalry: Well... You asked for them, here they are. Uh... I don't really know what to say about these guys, their stats kindof speak for themselves. They're Rough Riders, without First-STrike, but they gain a Light Machine Gun attack at range. Fairly nice for spear-heading an advance and breaking enemy units before you hit it with ranged weapons. Unit Size: 6-8.

Saurus Drop Troopers: Assault Infantry. Like the Assault Marines they're based on these guys are your assault infantry. They're also the only units transportable in aircraft, so make good use of that mobility. Unit Size: 6-8.

Drop Ship: Scary scary aircraft. This thing is really meant to assist the saurus drop-troops, and will work quite nicely with the updated aircraft rules Neal has proposed (I think it was Neal anyway...) they absorb fire-power, drop your troops where they need ot be, then become reasonable heavy-bombers afterwards. Tough to kill, and lay down reasonable amounts of hurt. Unit Size: 1.

Terradon Transports: Non-WE Transport Craft, such a scary concept in a world with so much AA isn't it? These really aren't good for a lot except delivering their cargo. They're reasonably resilient and can carry 2 stands of Saurus Drop Troops each. Use them the way you would most drop-troop carriers. While they lack DC they gain a larger unit size then most, so they'll be reasonably hard to shoot down. Unit Size: 3-4.

Terradon Attack Craft: These are your fighter/bomber combinations. They're scary in both roles and are almost certainly going to cost you a lot of points. You'll want to be careful with where you deploy them, but they'll throw out all kinds of hurt on anything you care to point them at. Unit Size: 3-4.

The rest from there are Characters and SUpreme Commanders who's battlefield roles SHOULD be very obvious.

Updated Rules:

Battle Screens: Models marked as having Battle Screens have specialized warp shields around them designed to disrupt and turn aside even the mightiest of blows against their armored hulls. The vehicle may make it's normal saves against ALL weapons, regardless of type. The save is never reduced for being hit by crossfire or sniper shots (It's a full 360 degree field with no weak points). Roll for each point of damage a TK weapon would inflict separately.

Old-One Heavy Battle Tank. (Arkalesh Heavy Tank)

Move: 25cm. Type: WE. Armor: 4+. CC: 6+. FF: 4+.

Weapons Range Firepower Notes
Warp Demolisher 75cm 2x MW 2+ TK(D3)
2x Rift Missiles 45cm MW4+ FxF Arc

DC 6. Critical: The Warp engines of the tank are damaged, the vehicle takes an extra DC and every unit within 2d6 cm takes a MW hit on a 4+.

Notes: Skimmer, Reinforced Armor, Thick Rear Armor, Fearless, Regenerate, Battlescreen.


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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:46 pm 
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That's a fairly tall order, but I'll give it a go.

WOW, that's pretty impressive!  I full expected, IF you were willing, that you'd take a couple of days to get it together.  This is just awesome.  It really makes the army come alive!


Anyone mind if I give these guys Infiltrator and cut back their move to 20cm?
I don't have a complaint.  Things have been pretty quiet here for a day or 2, but maybe the others will look and chime in.

Old-One AA Tank: It's anti-aircraft. Your only anti-aircraft at present (This is likely to change).
Did you have something else in mind?  An AA Walker perhaps?

You've really pulled it all together with this summary.  It looks really good.  Unit sizes look right.

Now we need to determine which are core choices and which are upgrades.  

Do we have a place for orangesm's suggestion of primitives (something in a role similar to Ork Grots)?  I only ask as this matches up nicely with the WFB Liz fluff of them using Pygmeys.  

If not, we can just call it a fluff thing and anyone who wants can use the primitives as "counts as" Skinks.

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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:34 pm 
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I dunno. It's tough to imagine something even more squishy then the Skinks! I could make primitives as size-boosters for Skinks... Mostly I just wanted to make these guys in the size-area between Marines and IG. They're not QUITE as heavily numbered as IG, but they're also much better at fighting then IG are...

For AA: Well I forgot the Temple has AA. Which is nice. But I'd probably make some kind of AA walker for them as well (My first thought when looking at the Varan was 'Maybe this thing could be their AA unit?' and I changed my mind when I saw that there was an AA tank! So I might move back to that... Now that'd be an interesting change... An AA BP weapon!)


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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:22 pm 
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Well, like I said, mostly a fluff thing.  Can easily just give them the same stats as skinks.  Skinks don't have any distinctive abilities that would make it wierd.

My first thought when looking at the Varan was 'Maybe this thing could be their AA unit?'


No reason we couldn't have both versions of the Voran.

Again, the summary look great.  It gives you a sense that the Xlan are something real now.

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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:40 pm 
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What do you think of my revised Battlescreen rules? I'm gonna start working on points-costs and units for the army... I was picturing Skinks, Saurus, Saurus Guards, Saurus Scarred Ones, Light Battle Walkers and Main Battle Walkers as your primary units.

Sortof like IG. Where you'll have 'Main' and 'Auxiliary' units. Plus some upgrades to add extra zing to the list. The idea is that they're very flexible, so you can choose how you want to play them. or play them as a well-rounded all-around force.


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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:59 pm 
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Battle Screen rules LOOK GOOD!!!   VERY GOOD!!!!
That's going to give them some strong staying power.

I like the starting line up too.  

Not that I'm complaining, but do you think Scarred ones can go back to being Oldbloods?  Just a name change, no problem with the stats.

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