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E:A  Rise of the Dracon
orangesm
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:33 pm 
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Well do we need them to be different models at all?  Why wouldnt the Lizardmen develop a single vehicle chassis and then just change the weapon systems on them.  Also I see 2-3 pyrmiads of different sizes for WE possibly making it a requirement for the largest to have two of the smaller.  The Pyrmiads should also be able to act as the center of the army without much trouble if supported by infantry.  The other vehicles would be on the flanks along with the rest of the infantry.  Just a thought.  I envision an attack in the center would require lots of effort.

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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:42 pm 
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I'd tend to agree with the 2 above replies.  Personally, I'd like to use the vorace as the standard AV walker, even if I'm the only one who will.  Then I think some simple conversions of the turret might be enough to get by.  Leave it off; cut down the barrel; add plastic rod, etc.  If some conversions turn out to be too daunting, I'll pledge to produce some detailed tutorials. :p

If the verger and/or velite are to be the AV standard, the solutions might be slightly harder.  But only slightly.

Orangesm: I had similar ideas about different pyramids, but I have a feeling smaller ones might just work best as alternate minis for the skimmers.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:33 pm 
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At present I'm picturing the Vorace as their Main battle Tank equiv. Their heavily armed/armored unit, relatively slow and tough to kill, with some of their longest range weapons outside of the OO vehicles. Comperable with the Leman Russ, essentially.
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:37 pm 
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I'd like to use the vorace as the standard AV walker...  Then I think some simple conversions of the turret might be enough to get by


This is why I asked Legion4 about whether other DRM turrets would fit it.  This is exactly what we need.  I just haven't seen one and have no idea how difficult the conversions would be.

Maybe the barrel could just be cut off, flatten it's turret and other DRM turrets stuck on it.

I wish I had a Voran.  I'd like to see how easily it would accept conversions too.  

I still think the Verger and Velite models don't fit, but we already have stats for them.  If they are used, I def. think one should be used as the Krox.  

Then, if I want to use a Chaos Dread (which BTW has a nice lizardy bumpy ridge down the top) for the Krox and something else for the other, I'm free to do that and everyone will be happy.

I have a question.  I always thought of the Vorace as our MBT and really wandered what we needed the Aurika (sp?) for.

I question the idea of multiple sized pyramids.  I feel there should only be one temple per army.  

What if we used other Aztec style stuctures as floating WE?

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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:07 pm 
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At present I'm picturing the Vorace as their Main battle Tank equiv. Their heavily armed/armored unit,relatively slow and tough to kill, with some of their longest range weapons outside of the OO vehicles. Comperable with the Leman Russ, essentially.


Excellent. :cool:

This is why I asked Legion4 about whether other DRM turrets would fit it.

Just in case they look a little too ungainly,for my tastes. :;):

I wish I had a Voran. ?I'd like to see how easily it would accept conversions too.

So would I. ?Time to scrape together for another order, I think.

I still think the Verger and Velite models don't fit, but we already have stats for them. ?If they are used, I def. think one should be used as the Krox. ?

Then, if I want to use a Chaos Dread (which BTW has a nice lizardy bumpy ridge down the top) for the Krox and something else for the other, I'm free to do that and everyone will be happy.

Just when I got used to the idea of krox as infantry. :laugh:
Which roles do you mean? ?The verger and velite are certainly AV, but what about the chaos dread? ?And something else for what other....?

Aurika: hmm. ?True. ?But then, as Ilushia says, the vorace should be fairly slow (I assume the light skimmers will have at least a 30cm move?).
BTW, I like the idea of switching turrets on the DRM vehicles. ?I just wonder if there'd be enough turrets to go round, at any one time!

I question the idea of multiple sized pyramids. ?I feel there should only be one temple per army.

Probably for the best. ?But I still kind of like the idea of little 'shrines' as alternate skimmer minis, buzzing about the main temple. :;):

What if we used other Aztec style stuctures as floating WE?

A quick google search doesn't turn up much that doesn't just look like a square house...

Horrible, terrible, shameful idea that I probably shouldn't bring up but I will anyway: a year or two ago I read up on the fluff of the rise of Sotek in FB (manifesting; chasing Clan Pestilens from their holes below Lustria; chasing them across the world pond into the Southlands, where he still apparently resides, causing earthquakes and eruptions in a section of the World's Edge mountains). ?I thought 'what if the lizardmen could call on Sotek to appear and aid them in battle?' ?Along the same lines as a greater daemon, but as a 'manifestation' - to avoid connotations.
Would this be a WE too far for the xlan?

At the least it might strengthen a connection with the eldar 'cosmic serpent' (partially-warp-based being[s]), which I'd like to research soon and develop through a xlan perspective.

I've pulled the clay pigeon - shoot it down if you like. :;):
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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:18 pm 
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I believe I currently have the OO light-tank at 35cm move. The Vorace is at 20cm, same as a Russ (It might be 25 come to think of it, I'll have to check), but it's not very fast. It's designed to be a tank, and that's really what it does best!
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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:23 pm 
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Sorry, I forgot about that! :blush:
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:06 am 
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Just when I got used to the idea of krox as infantry.


I told you, 50 odd posts ago that you shouldn't let go of the Krox as dread idea. :laugh: ?Ilushia even mentioned he already had stats that could easily be used for it that he had designed for the Verger or Velite, I don't recall which. ?

Which roles do you mean? ?The verger and velite are certainly AV, but what about the chaos dread? ?And something else for what other....?

You have to look WAY back at the stats Ilushia put up. ?He designed stats for both Verger and Velite. ?He stated one could be used as stats for the Krox (for which I would prefer the Chaos Dread model). ?I don't yet have an alternate model to represent the stats he designed for the model(Verger or Velite) that was NOT going to be the Krox. (confused yet?)

I just wonder if there'd be enough turrets to go round, at any one time!

The good news is both the Vorace and Arkalest come in packs of 2 while the smaller skimmers come in packs of 3.

You still may end up with a whole lot of small skimmers wearing giant Arkalest turrets when you're done. ?On the other hand, maybe they could be some new toys for the Orks to play with (darn, need that devil emoticon!).

I still kind of like the idea of little 'shrines' as alternate skimmer minis, buzzing about the main temple

Cool idea, though as an "official" concept, may draw too many comparisons to Necron. ?However, to coin my new catch phrase,
"What happens on your table, stays on your table" :cool:

'what if the lizardmen could call on Sotek to appear and aid them in battle

This may bring us a step too close to the Eldar army list (Avatar). ?They are another children of OO race that use skimmers and walkers. ?We may want to try to avoid making the comparison TOO strong.

I hate to dump personal feeling onto the project, but I'm not that big a fan of the whole magic thing anyway. ?

I don't control the direction of the project, but would like to see the actual "magic" ?that shows up in the army list limited as much as possible. ?Just my opinion.

In the fluff however, if a "connection" between Sotek and the Eldar Cosmic Serpent turns up, that's fine with me. ?There should be connections to the Eldar. ?Xlan were the OO's first "children", Eldar came later, Orks last.

Personally, I'd like to see Sotek as a serpent-like, purely mechanical, WE. ?I know no model would ever be found to represent it, but I think it would be cool.

What if you could choose 2 or 3 different types of main weapon on the "Great Temple"?

The Temple of Sotek has one weapon,
The Temple of Tepok has a different one, etc.
Again, just a suggestion.

OK, I've done my best to keep up, but now I'm starting to get confused. ?

Where do we, as a whole, stand on the different versions of the Vorace and what might they be?

How about the topic of limited AV skimmers? ?How many will there be? ?Gara and Aurika, I think. Is this right? ?

I may kill myself for opening this can of snakes, but could we get a light, fast walker instead of a light skimmer? ?This seems to fit better.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:40 am 
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We actually HAVE a light, fast walker. Well, it's not THAT light, but it is fast and only slightly heavier armored then a Dread. Comperable with the Tau battlesuits. Here you go:


Kroxigore Assault Machine (Velite Walker)

Move: 25cm Type: AV Armor: 3+ CC: 3+ FF: 5+

Weapons Range Firepower Notes
Power Mace Melee Assault MW, EA +1
Heavy MG 30cm AP4+/AT6+ -

Notes: Walker.


Now... If you mean a battle walker, something which can shoot lots, I can do that too! Right now the Aurika is very lightly defended. Being just 4+ armor, no RA, but has a very long-range high-power main weapon, 4+ MW. I'm picturing it in squads of 3-4 being a good 'back breaker' unit. It doesn't have Hit and Run so it can't hang around after firing, and with only 3-4 in a unit they're very easy to break/destroy. So it's main goal is to stay well away from it's enemies and blast them at range. It's also very fast at 35 cm move. Any suggestions on what you'd like to see if I do a fast-moving ranged-weapon walker? Also, would anyone be opposed to putting Jump Pack on the Kroxigore walker? When I look at that thing it screams 'Big jump-jet style engines' for some reason... I don't know why.
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:58 pm 
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I'm picturing it in squads of 3-4 being a good 'back breaker' unit. It doesn't have Hit and Run so it can't hang around after firing, and with only 3-4 in a unit they're very easy to break/destroy. So it's main goal is to stay well away from it's enemies and blast them at range. It's also very fast at 35 cm move


This sounds like a really strong concept.  I was just more into the walker concept instead of the skimmer concept.  Not a big sticking point, but I'd like to see these stats on a walker and not use the Aurika at all.

I was just thinking, except for the teleporter, we could keep the skimmers restricted to WE, and all AV (again, except the teleporter) would be walkers.  May not work out, but sounded alot more interesting to me.

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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:36 am 
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Serpent WE: Not sure how that would go.

Different weapons for pyramid: possibly. ?But I think that should be an addition after we have the main list hammered out. :;):
Off the top of my head, though: Sotek - TK; Tepok - AA capability.

Vorace types: it might depend on how convertible the varan is - I see it offering long-range support in a few ways. ?So, assuming that, my initial thoughts on the vorace are pretty basic - an AT type, AP type, and possibly a turretless transport. ?Or did that idea get dropped in favour of teleport skimmers?

I think this aurika/velite thing has the potential for another sticky trap.
Consectari: any specific grievances with the aurika? ?I agree with WE skimmers, but I don't know if the aurika should be kicked out because of it. (and I assume no-one wants me to trot out the old DC1 bit again?)
Also, it might be a little hard to find suitable proxies for an aurika-stats walker. ?Unless we all agree about jump-packs for the velite; and TBH, at the moment it's an eyebrow-raiser. ?I need a while for it to sink in.
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:31 am 
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any specific grievances with the aurika?


None at all.  I was mearly suggesting that it would make the list that much more "characterful" if they had no AV skimmers, just AV walkers.

Also, a fast walker with a long range weapons just seemed cool.

Not a big sticking point and if no one wants to jump on that band wagon, consider it gone.

I do think that consideration should be given to more variations fo the Varan.  Rather than all varients being based on the Vorace.  Again, this is not a big sticking point, just my thoughts.

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Yuber Okami
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:28 am 
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According to the fluff, there are two things here which seem wrong:

-Slann weren't the first children of the OO, but they were in fact the Old Ones themselves (according to RT rulebook), but maybe this is something GW wants to change nowadays, as they stated later that OO died long ago BUT there you have that slanni picture in the last 40k rulebook...

-The idea of an slanni "god" or "avatar" seems totally against the fluff, as the OO and their first creations (lizardmen) had very little in the way of emotions and powerful feelings, so they had almost no resonance in the warp, which is what creates the "gods". When they went to war with necrons they created the eldar as their psychic warriors, but the eldar emotions were too strong and their resonance in the warp became first the eldar gods, then the chaos gods.




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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:33 am 
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The thing is, we're borrowing a lot from FB lizardmen here - where Slann aren't Old Ones and the Old Ones are, for all intents and purposes, the gods of the lizardmen. ?And TBH a lot of RT stuff doesn't hold sway these days.

Also if emotional/psychic resonance holds true for FB too (as it seems to, to a degree), what about Sotek? :;):

BTW Consectari: got those landraiders. ?One of them'll go very well with Stumpy. :;):
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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:49 pm 
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I wouldn't be opposed to several different versions of the Varan. The Varan could easily be changed to move quickly (it is quadrupedal and you could see it moving reasonably fast) and carrying higher fire-power guns (It's got 9 huge gun-barrels on it, each of which look almost as big as a pers after all!)
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